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Metalhead 777
06-10-2001, 08:16 PM
I know I am bay bay!
<BR>
<BR>Pleeze don't make a flame war out of this, I'm just curious. <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
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<BR>_________________
<BR>blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah<BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: boardadmin on 2001-07-14 17:34 ]</font>

OrdinaryFool
06-10-2001, 08:27 PM
Shout it from the rooftops, Chief! <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
<BR>
<BR>Hey, dude - you know we're gonna catch SOME sparks don't ya'? I dont' want the flame wars either. Tragic there should even be any, but what did Papa say - that we would be persecuted for His name's sake, hmmm? Well, PRAISE JESUS. If such is the case, we are to consider ourselves blessed, my friend.
<BR>
<BR><'}}}}><

Halation
06-10-2001, 08:37 PM
<BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Halation on 2001-06-11 13:18 ]</font>

mossstorm
06-10-2001, 10:37 PM
I definately am. Praise his name!

Kraken
06-10-2001, 11:27 PM
Me, but why are you asking?

slipknot8527
06-11-2001, 12:11 AM
It's things like this that make me outraged. How can you expect this not to be a flame war?
<BR>
<BR>I for one am not Christian. I cannot stand narrowminded christians. I despise their beliefs and I despise the fact they think they are superior to everyone else. Were you hoping to build up a support group with this thread and mock everyone for having other beliefs? I for one believe god was created to give people SOMETHING to believe.
<BR>
<BR>If I have offended you get over it. You have offended me just as much by saying "PRAISE JESUS" and "If you want a real thrillride, jesus is the best one". I am as offended as some of you probaly are right now.
<BR>
<BR>Please think about that before you send a nasty remark or comeback. Religion does not belong in the boards.

mossstorm
06-11-2001, 12:44 AM
SlipKnot:
<BR>
<BR>Though I don't share your beliefs I do respect your beliefs. Those are yours and you have the right to believe what you want to.
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<BR>

VorTeX
06-11-2001, 01:02 AM
Threads like this have no place. They serve no discussionary purpose and serve only to single people out.

Sir Willow
06-11-2001, 01:16 AM
SlipKnot- I respectfully disagree with you on several points in your post. But at the same time, I respect your right to hold those views. I am not telling you that you have to believe my way, or any other way. At least not here.
<BR>
<BR>But I do want to point out a couple of things. One- it was not Christians who started bashing other religions here. In fact I have not seen one Christian bashing another non-Christian here yet. But I sure have seen some Christian bashing taking place- in particular by one person who didn't hesitate to post on this thread.
<BR>
<BR>Second, if this thread bothered you, you didn't have to click on the link to it, read it, or respond to it. You could have chosen to ignore it. But you didn't. If you want to start a thread entitled "any atheists here", feel free. That is your right. And anyone that posted there insulting those that posted would then be crossing the line.
<BR>
<BR>There is nothing wrong with having a faith, or being proud of that faith. But I strongly believe that it is wrong to show disrespect to another person's faith or beliefs, or insult someone because they believe differently.
<BR>
<BR>And I find it very interesting that 90% of the time it is the non-Christians slugging away at Christianity, but the same people leave every other religion alone. Hmm, wonder why that is? <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
<BR>
<BR>All that said, as I said in another thread I do think that it would be wise to not permit these kinds of threads on politics or religious faiths. As it's become painfully obvious to many people don't have the maturity to accept beliefs and opionions that differ from their own.

Tom Zeliff
06-11-2001, 03:03 AM
SirWillow makes an excelent point as always. It's posts like those that start flame wars. This topic is simply a survey to find out who else is Christian out there, and in no way warranted a negative post like that. You have the choice to view or not to view a particular post. You also have the right to believe what you wish and you should respect other's beliefs, even if you don't share them.
<BR>
<BR>-Tom

Flix
06-11-2001, 07:14 AM
i have been raised in a christian way, but from a very early age i couldn't understand an take in most of what was being said and over a period of time i have decided to just live my life without the complications of religion. I envy the people who have preservered and are part or a religion and have certain beliefs and wish i could but i find it very hard to follow the beliefs of chrstianity and other religions. I just find it hard to have a belief that our lives are watched over and miracles can happen.
<BR>
<BR>It is a matter on what way your mind sees the world, and mine can't see that it was designed, but i go to church with the school, sing, pray, and do what they want me to, and i am happy to be there, sharing with these people, but i my mind just can't seem to find that spot that so many religious people have.
<BR>
<BR>I tried to keep this as unoffensive as possible, and i am sorry if a offended anyone, it was unintentional.

Halation
06-11-2001, 10:00 AM
I really do appreciate the last poster who can eloqently state their beliefs and not offend anyone. Sir Willow is wrong in stating there has never been bashing of "non-christians" here. Hm, well, how about telling "the bible says homosexuality is wrong", you are condemning someone, not even for their beliefs, but for the way they are! Your belief system is a choice, homosexuality is not. You people can talk all you want about how never cast any stones. You do so in very subtle ways (where do you think the term 'holier-than-thou' came from)? You are so persecuted, you all love to play the martyr, don't you. Well you know what, it was CHRISTIAN beliefs that have messed this world up, beyond repair. It was the idea in the "holy bible" that man has dominion over nature, and can do what ever the hell he pleases. Yes, "God" created EVERYTHING, and then 'poof', 'he' was gone. Now we were free to cut down the forests, kill the indigenous tribes ('convert' those heathens, or kill them). Yes this has gone on for thousands of years 'in the name of god'. How can we forget about that wicked Eve. Oh, yes SHE tempted Adam. What a wicked wench. This MYTH is the reason why WOMEN have been PERSECUTED. Women have been raped, enslaved, blamed for "the fall". All because of this stupid MYTH. "God" is a man? The "son" of God, is a man? At least the Catholics have Mary. It seems to me that women have an extremely important job on this Earth (but we must keep them 'in their place', you know).
<BR>
<BR> I can 'pick on' other religions (that are messed up too), but obviously if I'm surrounded by self-righteous christians, I'm not going to point out the hypocricies of Hindus.
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<BR> The main thing is YOU DON'T GET MY POINT. I am NOT "anti-god". I am AGAINST the hypocricies of religious bigots. You DON'T "represent God", anymore than anyone else. I would not have said ANYTHING IF NOT FOR THE CONDEMNATION OF HOMOSEXUALS GOING ON HERE. Then again, certain people's self-righteous tones might have got me going. Iam not here to do a "flame war". I would just like these 'holy ones' to look in the mirror and see that they are not the righteous or the martyrs they make themselves out to be.. <BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Halation on 2001-06-11 13:20 ]</font>

Skyboss
06-11-2001, 10:22 AM
I am and I respectfully withold what I would like to say to those who are against my beliefs. No one asked you here and if you didn't like the topic you could have moved on.

Jim Payne
06-11-2001, 10:23 AM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 10:22, Skyboss wrote:
<BR>I am and I respectfully withold what I would like to say to those who are against my beliefs. No one asked you here and if you didn't like the topic you could have moved on.
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<BR>Good point! and Ditto!

Jim Payne
06-11-2001, 10:26 AM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 00:11, slipknot8527 wrote:
<BR>It's things like this that make me outraged. How can you expect this not to be a flame war?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>You could have skipped your post as it was rather quiet in here until you made your statement. Couldn't miss the chance could you?

Jim Payne
06-11-2001, 10:27 AM
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<BR>On 2001-06-10 20:37, Halation wrote:
<BR>See it's people like you that say with such conviction "I am a Christian and I am holier than thou" </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>No one said that. Just thought I'd point it out.

Halation
06-11-2001, 10:35 AM
Like I said, Jim, They 'say it' without actually saying 'it'. It's all in the way they say what they say.

Anaconda
06-11-2001, 11:09 AM
I am a Christian, but lemme say this, any Christian who is for real doesn't think that he/she is better than everyone else. I for one know that I'm not better than anyone else.

Skyboss
06-11-2001, 11:37 AM
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<BR>On 2001-06-10 20:37, Halation wrote:
<BR>See it's people like you that say with such conviction "I am a Christian and I am holier than thou" that make me want to get into it.
<BR>Well how about this I was baptised Catholic but I was turned off by the fundaMENTALists and the hypocrites. I looked into other religions (yes there are other religions that are equally valid) Buddhism, Hinduism, Mystical Judaism, Native American "religions"
<BR>Wicca (and don't you dare call it "satanism")
<BR>and Taoism. I found that the central message of most of these religions is love and compassion. I realised that THIS is what CHRIST was about. Not all the bull saying that "we killed him" (yes, that is what it basically says) or living in fear of others or God, for that matter. If you want to define yourself as a Christian good, but don't mock the founder by stating your ignorance and saying that's what Christ was about, because he was not.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>I'm not saying I'm holier than thou, but I will say this...
<BR>
<BR>2 Peter 3:16
<BR>His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
<BR>

Halation
06-11-2001, 01:01 PM
Skyboss, that is the whole point, "THE" scriptures were so distorted, censored, doctored, and misinterpreted, that any original "intent" (whatever that was) has vanished.
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<BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Halation on 2001-06-11 13:02 ]</font><BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Halation on 2001-06-11 13:03 ]</font>

Anaconda
06-11-2001, 01:49 PM
Halation, you jumped down my throat whenever I said something on your other threads about me not being this or whatever and that I was intolerable, so why are you on this thread putting down our beliefs? I call that being intolerable, and since you only seem to put down Christian beliefs it also makes you seem like you're discriminatory (not saying that you are, just saying it makes you seem like this).

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 04:52 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 00:11, slipknot8527 wrote:
<BR>It's things like this that make me outraged. How can you expect this not to be a flame war?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>The very fact that you don't have to post a reply here, or even read anything in this forum, is reason enough to not expect it to become a flame war. We were simply asking a question to find out who else on these boards share our beliefs, but right away it is those who don't share our beliefs who are coming right out and spewing their words of anger, bitterness, and yes - intolerance.
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<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I for one am not Christian. I cannot stand narrowminded christians.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Interesting how we are called narrowminded for professing what we believe, and what we stand for. We are "narrowminded" because we refuse to indulge in, or endorse, things we we BELIEVE our Holy Scriptures tell us are wrong for us to indulge in, or endorse. If this makes me narrowminded by society's definition, then so be it.
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<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I despise their beliefs and I despise the fact they think they are superior to everyone else.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
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<BR>Quite the opposite, guy. We don't feel we are superior at all. That is a label the world has given us because of a misunderstanding of our lives and beliefs. In fact, Christians are inwardly very humble people. Oh sure, there are a few who are arrogant. I have a problem with that, too. But for the most part, our belief is to give the shirt off our backs to the worst of enemies and strangers if called to do so. Quite often, I feel like everyone around me - even those who don't share my beliefs - are so much greater than I am, because I have so many problems in my life, and see how those around me have such greater qualities than I do.
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<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Were you hoping to build up a support group with this thread and mock everyone for having other beliefs?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Of course I don't think that was his intention. It was merely to reach out and see how many others shared his beliefs.
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I for one believe god was created to give people SOMETHING to believe.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>That is your belief, though I would like to ask what you base that belief ON?
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>If I have offended you get over it. You have offended me just as much by saying "PRAISE JESUS" and "If you want a real thrillride, jesus is the best one". I am as offended as some of you probaly are right now.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>First of all, we are not offended. We expect it, in fact. But if there is ANY attitude toward Christians that bothers me, it is THAT. It comes across sounding like it is okay to offend us, and you do it INTENTIONALLY. It makes us feel like your attitude is that it is okay to offend US, but it isn't okay to offend YOU. WE don't try to INTENTIONALLY offend anyone.
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Please think about that before you send a nasty remark or comeback.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>I think you will find that none of my remarks were nasty. Were you honestly expecting them to be?
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<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Religion does not belong in the boards.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>I disagree. This forum is called "General Talk" - and the implication is that we are allowed to discuss whatever we want. That is what this forum was set up for.<BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: OrdinaryFool on 2001-06-11 16:56 ]</font>

Cobra
06-11-2001, 04:55 PM
I myself was born into a Jewish family, although I do not believe in organized religion. I believe there could be a God, but I believe this God, if he exists, is a personal one, different to each human being. I don't believe in rules for religion. People should make up their own rules for themselves. They shouldn't listen to a book. Life, whichever way it twists and turns, teaches people how to live. Morals are taught to people by older people who have already learned these morals.
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I for one know that I'm not better than anyone else.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Sure, but I'm going to hell because I don't believe in Christ, and you're not...
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not saying I'm holier than thou, but I will say this...
<BR>
<BR>2 Peter 3:16
<BR>His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Trying to have a religious discussion by providing verses from the Bible just does not work, because the people you are arguing against don't believe anything the Bible says is true. Therefore, this Peter thing goes in one ear and out the other.
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<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>That is your belief, though I would like to ask what you base that belief ON?
<BR>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
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<BR>People don't need anything to base their beliefs on! We're not stating facts. Beliefs come from the mind and the heart, not some book that you are taught to accept as you are growing up.
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<BR><BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cobra on 2001-06-11 17:01 ]</font>

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 05:09 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 07:14, Flix wrote:
<BR>i have been raised in a christian way, but from a very early age i couldn't understand an take in most of what was being said and over a period of time i have decided to just live my life without the complications of religion. I envy the people who have preservered and are part or a religion and have certain beliefs and wish i could but i find it very hard to follow the beliefs of chrstianity and other religions. I just find it hard to have a belief that our lives are watched over and miracles can happen.
<BR>
<BR>It is a matter on what way your mind sees the world, and mine can't see that it was designed, but i go to church with the school, sing, pray, and do what they want me to, and i am happy to be there, sharing with these people, but i my mind just can't seem to find that spot that so many religious people have.
<BR>
<BR>I tried to keep this as unoffensive as possible, and i am sorry if a offended anyone, it was unintentional.
<BR>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>You haven't offended anyone - at least, not me.
<BR>I understand your difficulties. Believe it or not, I sometimes throw up my hands and say "I don't care anymore". In fact, I have told God directly that I want NOTHING to do with the church because there is so much confusion in the Christian faith these days. Too many differences in interpretations and doctrines, etc.... But I place my faith in JESUS - not the church.
<BR>
<BR>I wonder if perhaps somewhere inside you there might be a desire to know more about God. I'm not going to get all preachy on you, but just ask Him to help you understand the things you simply don't understand. <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 05:35 PM
<!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>People don't need anything to base their beliefs on! We're not stating facts. Beliefs come from the mind and the heart, not some book that you are taught to accept as you are growing up.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Actually, somehow or another, what you believe IS based on what you are taught, or what you have experienced. To state that God was simply made up in order to give people something to believe in is based on personal feelings. Christians base their beliefs on what we consider to be revelaed truth. We have experienced the validity of that truth, and so we believe. We have seen the historical evidence for the events which shaped our early fathers' beliefs, which reinforces our own beliefs. Why would someone make up God, simply to give people something to believe in?
<BR>
<BR>Another interesting question that is linked to this, but I know will lead off into a whole separate subject, is....
<BR>
<BR>If there is no such thing as God, then what caused the "Big Bang" to occur? Scientists will tell you that it was caused by the spontaneous explosion of gases billions of years ago, but what they CANNOT answer is - where did those gases come from?
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

B&MAaron
06-11-2001, 05:39 PM
Here's a joke:
<BR>A minister is about to make a sermon in his very large church complete with huge statues of Jesus and Mary. The minister then says "today's sermon is going to be about the Jews! I hate them so much and I'm going to tell all of you why i hate them so much, so if there are any Jews in here, you can just get up and leave." So quietly the statues of Jesus and Mary got up and left the church.
<BR>
<BR>I personally love that joke because it shows how stupid some of these conservative christains are for calling the Jewish people the killer's of christ or whatever. I do guess you are "holier" than though because christians have been trying to destroy the Jewish people for ages(If you dont believe me read up your history on the crusades and the middle ages). I practice religon more than probably anyone here. My beef is not against the christain people because i know most of them mean good and they can believe what they can believe because i have no problem with it as long as they dont go bashing the people of Israel(aka Charlie Ward). And know all these conservatives are going to tell me im going to hell, but i believe thats just place to scare to be good people.(Come on, a guy with a pitchfork and horns?)

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 05:55 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 17:39, B&MAaron wrote:
<BR>Here's a joke:
<BR>A minister is about to make a sermon in his very large church complete with huge statues of Jesus and Mary. The minister then says "today's sermon is going to be about the Jews! I hate them so much and I'm going to tell all of you why i hate them so much, so if there are any Jews in here, you can just get up and leave." So quietly the statues of Jesus and Mary got up and left the church.
<BR>
<BR>I personally love that joke because it shows how stupid some of these conservative christains are for calling the Jewish people the killer's of christ or whatever. I do guess you are "holier" than though because christians have been trying to destroy the Jewish people for ages(If you dont believe me read up your history on the crusades and the middle ages). I practice religon more than probably anyone here. My beef is not against the christain people because i know most of them mean good and they can believe what they can believe because i have no problem with it as long as they dont go bashing the people of Israel(aka Charlie Ward). And know all these conservatives are going to tell me im going to hell, but i believe thats just place to scare to be good people.(Come on, a guy with a pitchfork and horns?)
<BR>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Why would I tell you you are going to hell? Am I God? Ummm - I can assure you the correct answer to that question is NOOOO!! <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> So who am I to tell anyone they are going to hell?
<BR>
<BR>On a side note, here - do you think it is right to insinuate that all Christians are the same? Do you think it is nice to say things like "....it shows how stupid some of these conservative Christians are...." ?? Do we go around saying things like "these stupid unbelievers, etc....." Is it fair to call us stupid when we haven't called you stupid?

Cobra
06-11-2001, 06:00 PM
<!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, somehow or another, what you believe IS based on what you are taught, or what you have experienced. To state that God was simply made up in order to give people something to believe in is based on personal feelings. Christians base their beliefs on what we consider to be revelaed truth. We have experienced the validity of that truth, and so we believe. We have seen the historical evidence for the events which shaped our early fathers' beliefs, which reinforces our own beliefs. Why would someone make up God, simply to give people something to believe in?
<BR>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>I said that people don't NEED anything to base their beliefs on. Of course you CAN have something to base your beliefs on, but you don't NEED anything. I can look at somebody and say she is ugly and you can look at the same person and say she is beautiful. Both of those are beliefs, but there are no facts supporting either of our arguments. It's just how we "interpret" that person, just like we "interpret" other things in the world. If someone believes that God was created to give people something to believe in, WHY does he have to explain? There might be no explanation, maybe he just feels that way. Are you telling me that is not possible? Also, just because things are TAUGHT to me doesn't mean I have to BELIEVE them. I have my OWN mind which I control myself.
<BR>
<BR>As for the Big Bang, why don't you actually read some scientific essays about the theory and then come back and criticize it if you find faults with it. It is a lot more detailed than you think.
<BR>
<BR>And you ask, where did the gases come from? Well where did any of the things that God "created" come from? I refuse to believe that some supernatural being just created the world. Why? I have common sense. I am logical. Those things do not just happen. And until you can give me proof, which you never can, I will never believe in creation. Your little mythical tales of the Bible can't sway my beliefs (and my beliefs come from my MIND, not from something that has been taught to me.)
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Why would I tell you you are going to hell? Am I God? Ummm - I can assure you the correct answer to that question is NOOOO!! So who am I to tell anyone they are going to hell? </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Maybe not you personally, because you are a decent person, but MILLIONS of Christians around the world seem to believe that any other religion is going to hell. No other religions say that Christians are going to hell. Go figure.<BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cobra on 2001-06-11 18:02 ]</font>

Tom Zeliff
06-11-2001, 06:11 PM
Hey, what happened to the original topic? I beleive that this was a simple survey asking who here is a Christian. Let's get things back on topic please.
<BR>
<BR>-Tom

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 06:11 PM
<!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>As for the Big Bang, why don't you actually read some scientific essays about the theory and then come back and criticize it if you find faults with it. It is a lot more detailed than you think.
<BR>
<BR>And you ask, where did the gases come from? Well where did any of the things that God "created" come from? I refuse to believe that some supernatural being just created the world. Why? I have common sense. I am logical. Those things do not just happen. And until you can give me proof, which you never can, I will never believe in creation. Your little mythical tales of the Bible can't sway my beliefs (and my beliefs come from my MIND, not from something that has been taught to me.)</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Why are you so angry?
<BR>
<BR>You say you are logical. But think about something for a second. If you don't believe in a supernatural being who created everything, then how do you "logically" explain how it all appeared? How is it "logical" that those gases were never created?
<BR>
<BR>Furthermore, why do you presume I am not familiar with the Big Bang theory? Do you think I DON'T believe in it, simply because most Christians don't? I never said I didn't believe in it, though I never said I did either. So what basis do you have for presuming that I know nothing about it?
<BR>
<BR>Before you answer any of my questions, I am especially interested in hearing one answer from you.....
<BR>
<BR>Do you think I am stupid and naive for believing in Jesus?
<BR>

Amy
06-11-2001, 06:14 PM
After reading this thread, I feel sick to my stomach. I'm Christian, and I feel that stating that shouldn't be offensive to anyone on the boards. This thread was originally intended out of curiousity, or at least, thats how I took it up. I have respect for all other religions, or the choice not to be religious. Of course I disagree with some aspects of them, I disagree with some brances of Christianity, but do I feel the need to state these things specifically? I find that to be rude and offensive. I think that a moderator should close this thread, it's gone far enough...

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 06:16 PM
Fine Tom, shall I start a new topic? I would at least like to know the answer to my final question in my last post. The answer will greatly reveal something to me.

Cobra
06-11-2001, 06:23 PM
Ordinary Fool - I was not angry when I posted, I just type some words in caps in order to stress the words I'd stress if we were actually talking. No hard feelings were meant toward you.
<BR>
<BR>In answer to your question, of course I don't think you are stupid and naive for believing in Christ. Just because I don't believe in Christ doesn't mean it isn't okay for others to. However, it is when Christians (I am not talking about you when I say this, and I am not talking about lots of other Christians) try to say that their religion is right for EVERYONE. THAT is just stupid.
<BR>
<BR>About the Big Bang again, maybe you misinterpreted what I meant. I am not siding with the Big Bang, I am just leaving my mind open to it. Scientists might never figure out how the Big Bang happened (if it did happen) but that doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened. Further studies might help prove or disprove the theory, and they also might not do a thing. In that case, I just won't care how the world started. I'm here now, and that's what matters. However, I still refuse to believe that the entire world was created by some being. I'm sorry.

VorTeX
06-11-2001, 06:41 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 17:35, OrdinaryFool wrote:
<BR>Why would someone make up God, simply to give people something to believe in?
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>To explain away the unknown and to hide from the fact that life is finite. It's for the same reason the Greeks made up gods like Zeus and Venus and such.
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>If there is no such thing as God, then what caused the "Big Bang" to occur? Scientists will tell you that it was caused by the spontaneous explosion of gases billions of years ago, but what they CANNOT answer is - where did those gases come from?
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>What caused god to come into being? And if he's always been there (the most common answer I receive), why can't the universe (or universes in a multiverse) have always existed?
<BR>
<BR>This is something I've never heard religionists be able to answer or explain to any satisfactory level.
<BR>
<BR>And my opinion is to side w/ Occam's Razer in this instance. The simpler explanation is that the universe (or more to the point, the multiverse) has always existed and that their is no upper tier of "God". Why have God there? It is just extra fluff, added by humanity, IMO.
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>On 2001-06-11 01:16, SirWillow wrote:
<BR>And I find it very interesting that 90% of the time it is the non-Christians slugging away at Christianity, but the same people leave every other religion alone. Hmm, wonder why that is? <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Because right now Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. are not the ones who are prosetylizing to us, are not the ones who threaten to use their influence to kick aside the first amendment's establishment clause, are not bringing closed-minded attacks against groups where they use the bible to justify fearing them/putting them down a level in society (homosexuals in the present, colored people in the past, women still as well).
<BR>
<BR>_________________
<BR>VorTeX
<BR>Cedar Point Season Pass Holder
<BR>
<BR>I believe in life BEFORE death.
<BR>
<BR>Got Questions?
<BR><!-- BBCode auto-link start --><a href="http://www.fallentree.org" target="_blank">http://www.fallentree.org</a><!-- BBCode auto-link end --><BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VorTeX on 2001-06-11 18:49 ]</font>

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 07:29 PM
Fine. Whatever.

Smoky
06-11-2001, 07:32 PM
The topic asks "Who here is Christian?"
<BR>
<BR>Hmm, well to answer that question my real name is Chris, which of course is short for Christian, but in this case its short for Christopher, however I don't have a problem being called Chris, Christian, Christopher, Kristofer, and so on, as long as you don't call me late for dinner. <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">
<BR>
<BR>See you can answer this topic without flaming <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

B&MAaron
06-11-2001, 07:42 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 17:55, OrdinaryFool wrote:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Why would I tell you you are going to hell? Am I God? Ummm - I can assure you the correct answer to that question is NOOOO!! <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> So who am I to tell anyone they are going to hell?
<BR>
<BR>On a side note, here - do you think it is right to insinuate that all Christians are the same? Do you think it is nice to say things like "....it shows how stupid some of these conservative Christians are...." ?? Do we go around saying things like "these stupid unbelievers, etc....." Is it fair to call us stupid when we haven't called you stupid?
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>I did not say that, what i said if you read my post is that i have no problem with most christains because they are good people , but i do have problems with people who say Anti-Semitic things. Don't tell me conservatives wont say your going to hell because many have told me this just because I am Jewish. I also think its stupid to ask such a question: Are you Christain?, 9 out of 10 people on this site are so why do you ask it?
<BR>
<BR>Also, if you think about it occam's razor you might realize that the simpliest explaination might be there is a God rather than a whole lot of scientific stuff about the big bang or this or that.

dingo65
06-11-2001, 07:46 PM
I am.

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 08:14 PM
Look, I am eternally sorry for misreading ANYONE'S words. I hang my head in shame for such a discrepancy.
<BR>
<BR>Guys, there are some questions I can't answer, but I am not going to stop believing because I can't answer them. If I could answer them, I would be God Himself. And so since He is the only one capable of answering some questions, ASK HIM!!!
<BR>
<BR>Where did God come from? I DON'T KNOW!!! I have wondered about that myself. But it does not mean I am NOT going to believe in Him. WHY?? Because it is called F A I T H!
<BR>
<BR>

Cobra
06-11-2001, 08:19 PM
<!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Where did God come from? I DON'T KNOW!!! I have wondered about that myself. But it does not mean I am NOT going to believe in Him. WHY?? Because it is called F A I T H!
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Bingo, buddy. Now that you have said that, take a look at your earlier question:
<BR>
<BR>"If there is no such thing as God, then what caused the "Big Bang" to occur?"
<BR>
<BR>You're asking me to explain something, and if I can't explain it, you dismiss it as false. Then I ask you the equivalent and you say you don't know. This proves that just because we don't know why something happened doesn't mean we can't believe in it.

Halation
06-11-2001, 08:38 PM
Just a simple response from the "inciter of flame wars" here.
<BR> Ordinary Fool-do I do NOT think you are naive or stupid for believing in Jesus.

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 09:12 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 20:19, Cobra wrote:
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Where did God come from? I DON'T KNOW!!! I have wondered about that myself. But it does not mean I am NOT going to believe in Him. WHY?? Because it is called F A I T H!
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Bingo, buddy. Now that you have said that, take a look at your earlier question:
<BR>
<BR>"If there is no such thing as God, then what caused the "Big Bang" to occur?"
<BR>
<BR>You're asking me to explain something, and if I can't explain it, you dismiss it as false. Then I ask you the equivalent and you say you don't know. This proves that just because we don't know why something happened doesn't mean we can't believe in it.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>WWWHHHHAAATTTT?????
<BR>
<BR>I was not trying to ask you literally to explain it. It was a rhetorical question. (Man, I must be really off tonite on reading people's posts.)
<BR>
<BR>Let me try to illustrate something here, though I will probably fall flat on my face in the effort.
<BR>
<BR>Imagine a line. I don't know how old you are, but remember in school when you learned that a line, theoretically, can continue on in each direction for eternity? Technically, a line can extend for infinity in opposite directions. In imagining this line, place your mind outside that line, so that, realistically speaking, you could travel along that line in either direction, forever, without encountering the end of it. HOWEVER, if you take a marker and make a point somewhere on that line and start it's path along one direction of that line, you are no longer outside the line, but rather a segment of it which was started at some point along the way. You are traveling in only one direction and so you are not capable of knowing anything that happened at any time before your original starting point. You are able to imagine the possibility of continuing on forever in the direction you are going, but you can't imagine going any further back than your starting point. I know this sounds like a crude illustration, but think back to the beginning of this paragraph when you were able to see the line going off in both directions because you were outside it. Being outside that line represents the kind of mind that God has. He is not bound by a starting point on the line. YOU, however, ARE bound by a starting point on that line. And that represents the finite minds we have.
<BR>
<BR>We simply DON'T have the ability to see that God has always existed. But that is why God is God. Because He DOES have the ability to see infinity all at once. I don't know how else to explain it. God, defined by the characteristics of God, MUST be outside ALL else that exists. Meaning, He is independent of all else. He can interact with THAT which is, but He is not bound by it.
<BR>
<BR>God is of such an essense that He cannot be totally defined or explained by man. We simply don't have the ability to. Look at a fruit fly. It only lives for a very short period of time. It's awareness of humans, if any awareness exists at all, is of such a level of intelligence so far below ours, that it would NOT be able to comprehend our intelligence and length of time that we have been on earth compared to itself. I'm not saying that we would be God to it; just trying to illustrate the differences between intelligences. Even if a fruit fly DID think of humans as God, it would be mistaken because we know that we are not. Likewise, IF it were possible that God had actually had a beginning, then that would indicate that whatever it was that created Him, or WHEREVER it was He came from, would ITSELF be true God. And so on and so forth, on back for eternity. WHATEVER it was that produced God after God after God, would have to ITSELF be the true God. The next 'logical' point of contention would be that God must somehow be capable of dying, if, after all, this God were created by another God before Him. In essense, God's father must have died at sometime. And if such is the case, how is it possible that God would be able to grant eternal life to us, if He is not able to give it to Himself?
<BR>
<BR>To think that man invented God means that man SOMEHOW had to create himself, and likewise, the universe. But we all know that is not true. So yes, God exists. Don't you see that?

VorTeX
06-11-2001, 09:22 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 21:12, OrdinaryFool wrote:
<BR>To think that man invented God means that man SOMEHOW had to create himself, and likewise, the universe. But we all know that is not true. So yes, God exists. Don't you see that?
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>That is ridiculous.
<BR>
<BR>If the universe has always existed, and nothing exists beyond the universe, man can still create god by making up stories and myths of a father figure who is perfect in every way. And they still haven't created the universe or themselves. Natural processes did both.
<BR>
<BR>You obviously don't understand that when I, and many others, say man invented god, I mean it in the same way as saying man invented kermit the frog or Santa Claus.

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 09:29 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 21:22, VorTeX wrote:
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>On 2001-06-11 21:12, OrdinaryFool wrote:
<BR>To think that man invented God means that man SOMEHOW had to create himself, and likewise, the universe. But we all know that is not true. So yes, God exists. Don't you see that?
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>That is ridiculous.
<BR>
<BR>If the universe has always existed, and nothing exists beyond the universe, man can still create god by making up stories and myths of a father figure who is perfect in every way. And they still haven't created the universe or themselves. Natural processes did both.
<BR>
<BR>You obviously don't understand that when I, and many others, say man invented god, I mean it in the same way as saying man invented kermit the frog or Santa Claus</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Okay - I already know the response I am going to get to this, but I'll say it anyway...
<BR>
<BR>Prove that God does NOT exist.

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 09:30 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 20:38, Halation wrote:
<BR>Just a simple response from the "inciter of flame wars" here.
<BR> Ordinary Fool-do I do NOT think you are naive or stupid for believing in Jesus.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Thank you. I appreciate that.

VorTeX
06-11-2001, 09:33 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 19:42, B&MAaron wrote:
<BR>Also, if you think about it occam's razor you might realize that the simpliest explaination might be there is a God rather than a whole lot of scientific stuff about the big bang or this or that.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Not if you apply it correctly. A creator that does mysterious stuff w/ the universe like making it expand just for the hell of it... or natural processes supported by observable evidence.
<BR>
<BR>Many of these processes exist, with or without god. So why have an extra ingredient?
<BR>
<BR>That's what Occam's Razer says about that.

VorTeX
06-11-2001, 09:36 PM
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<BR>On 2001-06-11 21:29, OrdinaryFool wrote:
<BR>Okay - I already know the response I am going to get to this, but I'll say it anyway...
<BR>
<BR>Prove that God does NOT exist.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Prove that invisible flying pink unicorns do not exist.
<BR>
<BR>The burden of proof lies in those making the positive claim.
<BR>
<BR>I can say that invisible flying pink unicorns exist... you don't have to disprove it... I have to prove it.
<BR>
<BR>Same goes for God.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Oh for what it's worth... God exists as an idea and tool to give men power, amongst other things.
<BR>
<BR>_________________
<BR>VorTeX
<BR>Cedar Point Season Pass Holder
<BR>
<BR>I believe in life BEFORE death.
<BR>
<BR>Got Questions?
<BR><!-- BBCode auto-link start --><a href="http://www.fallentree.org" target="_blank">http://www.fallentree.org</a><!-- BBCode auto-link end --><BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VorTeX on 2001-06-11 21:37 ]</font>

OrdinaryFool
06-11-2001, 10:11 PM
When proving something, you need evidence, Vortex. My statement to you to prove He does NOT exist requires that you give REASONS for your claim that He does not exist. You cannot do that.
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>The burden of proof lies in those making the positive claim.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>No, actually the burden of proof lies with those who declare as statements of fact THAT which they have no evidence with which to back up their statements.
<BR>
<BR>You are stating flat out, as if it were fact, that you do not believe God exists, but you have NO evidence whatsoever to back up your claim. You offer no evidence which I cannot explain.
<BR>
<BR>I, on the other hand, recognize the evidence of a creator's hand in the universe.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I can say that invisible flying pink unicorns exist... you don't have to disprove it... I have to prove it.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>I WOULD have to disprove it if I came right out and said "No, they do NOT exist". If I have no proof that they don't exist, who am I to doubt you? You could attempt to give me evidence, but if I couldn't disprove it, then I would have to back away from my claim.
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Same goes for God.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>Like I said, give me verifiable reasons, with evidence, that God does NOT exist. I'll bet you can't do that.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Oh for what it's worth... God exists as an idea and tool to give men power, amongst other things.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End -->
<BR>
<BR>That's ridiculous! I'll repeat - give me evidence for your claims.
<BR>

ChronoTrigger
06-11-2001, 10:26 PM
Why do religion topics always turn into flame wars? Final Warning before this joins the other flame war topics.

Jim Payne
06-11-2001, 10:28 PM
Kill it Ben.

ChronoTrigger
06-11-2001, 10:29 PM
Yeah, this has gone on long enough