Sethar, you are a moron and a coward. The US is trying their best not to kill civilians, but it is impossible to avoid innocent deaths in an attack such as this. Dozens of jets scrapped their entire mission(meaning they didn't drop a SINGLE bomb) because there was the SLIGHTEST chance of civilians being in the area.

You ought to be a shamed of yourself! How dare you compare the US military to the bastard terrorists of the Al Qaeda(sp) network! We are fighting for freedom! We are not only fighting for ourselves, but for the entire free world!

I for one am glad we decided to respond to the attacks this way. This way, few, if any of our soldiers will be killed.

I would like to point out two more things:

1) Most of the civilian death cannot be confirmed. The damn Taliban now states that well over 300 civilians have been "murdered". This cannot be confirmed, but the US is calling them "accomplished liars".

2) The Taliban has killed many more civilians that US bombs ever will. Let me show you how evil they are: As a token of goodwill the UN had a Football(soccer to the US) stadium built in Afghanistan(not sure what city). No games have ever been played there. Insted it is used as an area for public exicutions!! People are hung from the goals!

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That is fascinating, Thom Yorke! You are very very interesting, and very very perceptive! So interesting and so perceptive that I think we will now fight with knives!
Yeah! To the death! Photo Trip Report!

those were my thoughts exactly

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Top Five 1)TTD 1)Raging Bull 3)Montu 4Deja Vu 5)MF

Come on, let's simmer down a little bit. There's nothing wrong with expressing our opinions on this matter. The thing you have to remember is that others are entitled to their opinions just as you're entitled to yours. Please be respectful. We encourage debate, but namecalling will not be tolerated.

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Erik Johnson
ThrillNetwork Co-Administrator
Upload an image to the DB! Post a track or comment in SpeedZone! They count towards your post count!

So Erik, you don't agree with any of what we say I take it? This is justified here, just like what we are doing to Afghanistan. Here's some more fun stuff :-)

When winter arrives in Afghanistan, I think that there will be no ground forces there, simply because the public will not stand for a C-17 full of bodies and quickly denounce the war, which the Bush administration will not stand for (I hope), but the war will shift to another country sheltering/acting in terrorism, such as Iraq, Iran, Syria, or another terrorist state. The US people are very ignorant, and when hundreds die in Afghanistan, they won't want to fight in the war, just like Vietnam. I would consider Afghanistan a 'Vietnam with snow' in the winter, with victory just within reach, but still light years away. I think it would be in our best interests to just help the Northern Alliance, and make sure that they are able to unite the country, but wait theres more. USA policy has barred assainations since 1976, well, we are in a war now, and I think this needs to change. Although I believe we will never get bin Laden (see earlier posts) assasinations will be the way to get it done, but after there will still be people willing to die for the cause, so it will be a long war. The major point here is that Afghanistan is a poor-a** country, and many follow bin Laden because he has money.

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Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan.

No clue who the guy pictured in my avatar is, but its a great picture nonetheless!

If you're gonna equate this conflict to Vietnam, you need to come up with some support. Many people disagreed with Vietnam from the start. They didn't feel Vietnam was worth it, nor did they agree with the excuse about containing the soviet/communist threat. They felt the risk to Americans soldiers wasn't worth any perceived benefit. That's why they didn't support it, and that's why discontent grew as the years rolled by.
The situation now could not be more different. Why are we in this war? Because six THOUSAND civilians were killed. It was the worst single attack on American soil in history. People support this war because its viewed as retaliation and protection against future attacks. People WILL accept the death of even hundreds of American soldiers, just as they did in WWII. When this country is attacked, its citizens get a high sense of patriotism that lasts for a suprisingly long while. If they feel a real threat, they will support even drastic actions to contain and even eliminate that threat.

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Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

Erik, I appreciate your level-headed comment. I don't like being called names any more than anyone else.

Let me clear up some things:

After calling me some names, Coaster Boy made a few points:

He said that we've avoided killing more civilians than we could have by some of our pilots not dropping bombs if they thought there might be civilians in the way.

I appreciate that, and I'm glad that our military is attempting to avoid killing civilians. But it's not good enough. We spend an almost incomprehensible amount of money on our military. And yet we continue to make mistakes like these. If they cannot be more accurate with their weaponry, what's the point in spending money to make those weapons accurate?

He also pointed out the fact that many civilian deaths have not been verified by anyone but the Taliban.

That is a point that I'm well aware of. And if you will notice, I do not ever use the Taliban as a source for my criticism of the US military action. I don't know how much clearer I can be than this -- I absolutely do not support in any way the government of the Taliban or the actions of Osama bin Laden's terrorist network. I think they are evil and I hope to see the entire world freed from the violence they perpetuate upon Afghans and humanity as a whole. I do find it frustrating that the only time the US military admits to accidently hitting civilians is when a respected international organization (UN, ICRC) makes that claim first.

Finally, Coaster Boy points out the horrendous human rights record of the Taliban.

And like I said above, I think the Taliban is evil. I've noticed that many people don't seem to understand -- criticizing the military action in Afghanistan does not make you a terrorist supporter or a Taliban supporter. This is not a dichotomy. I can oppose the Taliban AND US bombs killing civilians without being inconsistent.

Kraken tells me he would like to have given me the middle finger. I'm glad that he can form his arguments so well.

Finally, let me point out an irony that I notice. Many Americans these days have expressed violent feelings towards people who dared to speak out against the military actions. Often times the argument is made that "if you don't like it here, maybe you should move to Afghanistan." Have some people forgotten the whole point of this? It's freedom. And freedom includes the right to disagree, and speak publicly of your disagreement with the government. That is what makes America beautiful. We can criticize an aspect of our government and still respect the freedom that allows us to do so. It just makes me sad to see people forget about freedom in their rage after September 11th.

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Bumpersticker philosophy: The greatest threat to freedom = The radical religious right.
Last time we mixed politics with religion, people got burned at the stake.
What schools need is a moment of science.

You need to be more specific, because I'll argue til i'm blue in the face that we aren't spending an 'incomprehensible' amount of money on the military. for the past decade, military spending has been cut drastically. Not to mention the fact that, as the only superpower/hegemon, we have a desire and a responsibility to maintain a global military presence (both independently and through NATO and the UN). to say nothing of the fact that there is not one--not ONE--technology in the history of the planet that has been perfect all the time. how accurate can you expect the smart-bomb technology to be, given you extend the iteration of use long enough?


I couldn't agree more with you here. War doesn't change the nature of our country, nor is it off limits as a topic of debate. In a free society, the actions of the government should always be analyzed and questioned. There's still accountability to be had, not simply an assumption of total blind support.

Having said that, I still don't see what your alternative is. I don't like seeing innocent Afghanis killed in the conflict, but I don't see a feasible resolution to the issue without relying on the type of war we're fighting now. It's simply the only way, sadly. What is your alternative?

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Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

Firstly, I'd just like to echo Erik's call to respect other's opinions. You can't have it both ways, defend your freedom when it's threatened, as is occuring right now, yet jump on someone who exercised that right to freedom because their thoughts on a subject are different to your own.

I agree with Sethar on his point about objecting to the bombing: just because you think the bombing should stop does not mean you support the Taliban! There are plenty of other ways that Bin Laden could be caught, espionage, covert operations, etc. Personally, I think that these will be more successful in the long run in catching him, as you can bomb seven shades of crap out of Afghanistan, but rest assured, Bin Laden will be safely holed up somewhere.

Also, there is this comparison. When the IRA tried to assassinate the British cabinet by bombing the Grand Hotel in Brighton in 1984, no-one suggested that Britain should bomb Ireland. Instead, every resource was ploughed into finding the bombers, which took about 8 or 9 years, but the two of them were ultimately found and jailed for life.

Therefore, by suggesting the bombing should stop doesn't mean you support the Taliban, it merely means you're using your brain to think of possible alternatives.

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Andy Rathe

well bombing terrorist camps is verrry productive, and bin laden will be caught in time. im just glad we had the wapons inspectors in iraq b/c saddam would have capitalized on this opportunity if he had the weapons he had 12 yrs ago

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Top Five 1)TTD 1)Raging Bull 3)Montu 4Deja Vu 5)MF

you oversimplify the situation. It is the position of the US government that foreign governments who willfully support and harbor terrorist networks will 'share in their fate,' as president bush stated it. The taliban allow bin laden to stay in afghanistan--they harbor and protect his network. The purpose of the bombing is to cripple the talibans communications and military strength, thereby rendering the governemt useless. this will be a HUGE help when the active search for bin laden begins. also, the bombing is meant to cripple terrorist training camps, as well.

to say nothing of the fact that the situation in northern ireland is complicated to a spectacular degree. so is the afghani situation, but in completely different manners. context is everything.

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Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

I know it's different, but it was the best comparison I could think of, to demonstrate my point! Also, I do support the bombing that is presently occurring, BUT, and I'll be totally honest, (and gladly be proved wrong too) , I'll be surprised if Bin Laden is caught.

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Andy Rathe

I don't like war by any means but the Taliban more than deserves it! One thing that I have to say that I like the way the US is handling it! They do not want to kill innocent people and they are dropping food to the civilians to help! Now what other country would do that! And as for the ********* Taliban them SOB's had plenty of warning- all they said before we attacked was that we wouldn't do it cause the US was chicken!! Please!! They were the chickens, they were the ones that killed us and gave us no warning at all - they just killed and hid, they are the chickens! As for Osama bin Laden I wanna see him die but in time, I first wanna see him captured and put into a US Prision- I want to see him suffer and get the crap kicked outta him by all the prisioners- he is all big now but put him there with a bunch of pissed off American prisioners!! After he gets the crap kicked out of him he deserves the death penalty!!

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I left my heart in Sandusky!!!

And how long has the IRA been attacking you? 50 years?

In a criminal act, you go and arrest who commited the crime. The Trade Center attacks were not crimes. They were acts of war! People need to start treating this like the attack it was, and not as a crime.

Believe me you don't. The hassles of getting him actually into US Court and in prison or put to death will be big. You want him dead.

Zach

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"When you pull on that jersey, the name on the front is a hell of alot more important than the one on the back."
-Herb Brooks (Miracle)

Now, bear with me on this one - it is on topic! I read in todays paper that a geologist recognised the rock in the background of the video of Bin Laden that we all saw last week. Apparently, that particular rock strata is only found in one particular part of Afghanistan. So, right now I expect covert op's are going on in that area to find Bin Laden; after all, they're not going to announce it!

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Andy Rathe

yeah i heard that too

we have ground troops capturing a city right now

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Top Five 1)TTD 1)Raging Bull 3)Montu 4Deja Vu 5)MF

As much as I want to see it happen, you have to look at the facts.
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It is 99.9% positive that we will not get him. We will try, but we probably won't suceed

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Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan.

No clue who the guy pictured in my avatar is, but its a great picture nonetheless!

I'm so confused! Is Pakistan on our side our there's? Hm...

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SHAME ON YOU FOR EXPRESSING YOURSELF!

This isn't exactly as helpful as it first appears. The food contained in the packages that the US is dropping isn't staple food, like rice or pasta, that the people really need. Instead, it's strawberry jam, peanut butter, and a few other things that the average Afghan refugee won't ever have seen, and therefore won't know whether to eat it, brush his teeth with it, or use it as a toy.

I wish I was making this up, but I'm afraid I'm not - the packs even contain a moist towelette - like the ones on planes - that'll really come in handy! Plus, the languages on the packs are English, Spanish & German - again not what the average refugee is likely to be fluent in.

I know that these are US army rations (I think so anyway), and at least the US and other countries are doing something to help the millions of people who will starve to death if nothing is done, but I think there are far better things that we could be giving them, stuff they need, recognise and could use, rather than the things I've mentioned above.

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Andy Rathe

Actually, we are dropping MRE's-Meals Ready to Eat. They are like one meal contained inside a small package, and are rations used by the United States army. These DO contain simple foods, like Rice, Noodles, and other average stuff. The reason there are moist towelettes is because they are contained in the MRE's, along with the food. BTW, I didn't hear of England dropping any food.

I'm well aware that the USA is currently the only country doing the aid drops (though that doesn't mean that other countries haven't supplied any of the food being dropped), and I'm not criticising them for that at all. All I'm demonstrating is that not all the stuff being dropped is as useful as it could (and should) be. In less than four weeks time, winter will be setting in - think Wyoming in January and you'll have some idea of what it'll be like. EVERY country should be doing more to help the Afghan refugees, as they didn't ask for this war, and are merely caught up in it.

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Andy Rathe

Well I think it's foolish of countries to criticize the U. S. dropping food, while they aren't helping the refugees in any way.

U.S Speacial Forces(The Rangers) have landed in Afghanistan!

Their mission? Intelligence gathering. No, they are not capturing a city. They are storming a Taliban C&C building that has not been destroyed, looking for any info they may be able to use. While they were there they also destroyed abandoned weapons left by the Taliban forces. They met with little resistance.

In a related note(I sound like a newscaster, I know) a U.S blackhawk helecopter has crashed in Pakistan, killing two US soldiers. The Pentagon says it was an accident, caused by a "brownout", or large amounts of dust blocking the pilot's view.

The damn Taliban reported that it shot down the helecopter. They also claim to also have beaten back U.S forces that attacked their C&C center. They are terrible liars, no?

Things are finally starting to get interesting!

Go to the games section, I am starting a virtual pool on when the war will end.

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That is fascinating, Thom Yorke! You are very very interesting, and very very perceptive! So interesting and so perceptive that I think we will now fight with knives!
Yeah! To the death! Photo Trip Report!

I clearly said in my above post that I'm not criticising the US for dropping food. I merely said that, IMHO, it is not as practical as it should be. Yes, MRE's may be being dropped, which is fine, but so is stuff such as jam and peanut butter, which for a refugee is next to useless. However, I do agree that at least the USA is doing something.

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Andy Rathe

can you find any proof that we are dropping jam. all we are dropping are the yellow packet MRE's

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Top Five 1)TTD 1)Raging Bull 3)Montu 4Deja Vu 5)MF

Among other things, the U.S is dropping wheat, flour, sugar, bread, water, and assorted canned food. Want proof? Turn on CNN for a while. Eventually they will show the refugees gathered around one of the drop sites gathering as much stuff as they can carrry.

-PEACE THROUGH POWER!

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That is fascinating, Thom Yorke! You are very very interesting, and very very perceptive! So interesting and so perceptive that I think we will now fight with knives!
Yeah! To the death! Photo Trip Report!

The reason they contain Jam is because the MRE's contain Jam! Would it be better to open them up, remove the Jam, and the repackage it, eventually making the costs go sky-high? Or should we give it to them anyway, and have it thrown on the ground, while they eat the other food? We aren't dropping 50 pound crates of Penut Butter! It's contained and sealed in the MRE's!

In that case, I take back that part of what I said; I didn't know that that was what was included as standard in the MRE's. Plus, like I mentioned, at least the USA is doing SOMETHING to aid the normal food programmes going on in the region.

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Andy Rathe

Hey, but if there is also bread in the MRE's they could make PB&J! Anyway, dropping the MRE's is not making the Taliban hand over bin Laden. We are just doing it out of... what? Pity and sympathy? Hm... maybe not. But then again, maybe SO...

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SHAME ON YOU FOR EXPRESSING YOURSELF!