He might had died of kidney failure!!!!!!!!!
http://dailynews.netscape.com/mynsne...81356000105925
Hope its true.

geez i hope thats true.
that would make my month. literally.

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MARYLAND WINS! MARYLAND WINS!Deine Mutter schmekt gut
Founder of the SEMN, Proud member of the WWHBC

All's i heard is that he was "suffering" from Kidney Failure.

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Dr. Bruce Banner version 3.0.... Coming summer 2006 to a theme park near you!
"I could sure use some of the Hulks strength right now."

1. This belongs in attack of america
2. This is a repeat
3. That would suck because if the US doesnt capture him, then well probably never know

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'09 Area Supervisor, Merchandise, Michigan's Adventure
'08 Area Supervisor, Merchandise, SFoT; '07 Area Supervisor, Merchandise, Cedar Point
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i really hope hes dead

all i khave to say is I hate that %#$&^ %&#*&())# )(@#&U( @*(*)@... family board...

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http://www.brettstevens.5u.com/

Does it really make any difference anyway? The damage has been done, and we've already made fools of ourselves...

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Walk Beyond...

What is that supposted to mean?

maybe she means cause we've killed thousands of innocent afghani people ( when bombing) on accident.possibly more then the number killed in the WTC.

Exactly. There are dozens of nations that are protesting the United States' actions right now, because we seem on a personal vendetta bent not on justice, but on revenge. In my opinion (and only my opinion), that makes us no better than the individuals that started this in the first place. Absolultely, if we knew where they are (which we do not), we should seek justice. But revenge? What's the point? Will it bring back the thousands of lives lost that day, or rebuild the towers? Will it take those images out of our minds? Or will it make us terrorists to other countries?

Remember, mooses41, we're all entitled to our own opinions, and please, let's keep the profanity outside, shall we? Thanks!

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Walk Beyond...

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the USA has made a fool of itself. It didn't do itself any favours with things like bombing Red Cross shelters and dropping food parcels containing peanut butter and jam, with instructions written in English and Spanish. They were obviously well-intentioned, but those actions did give opponents of the bombing plenty of ammunition of their own. Also of course, the Taliban were destroyed, so hopefully now the people there can one day return to a reasonably normal semblance of living.

The question is at what cost has this been achieved. Sections of media coverage here in England are beginning to seriously question what bombing the hell out of Afghanistan will actually achieve in the long term. Sure, it'll satisfy the short-term need for action, and the need of the US government to be seen to be doing something, but to suggest that anything will be solved long-term simply by the bombing is laughable. Even if Bin-Laden is captured/dead, there are 1000 members of his organisation willing to replace him, and die for their cause.

The USA needs to change it's foreign policy in the Middle East, stop acting like a global bully (which like it or not is how it is seen in many countries), and try to be less insular and realise the world extends beyond the 50 states.

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Andy Rathe

I hope he's not dead.

How can you wish death upon anyone? You're no better than him.

Melissa-
Would you rather have the US just sit back and take no military action? Oh yeah, that would have been great. No innocent Afgans would have died. Yeah!!
... but wait, what message would that send the terrorists whose very intention was to kill innocent people. If we would have just bombed the Taliban and left, what would they have thought?
They would have then assumed that they could terrorize the rest of the world without punishment, because, hey, they got away with killing thousands of innocent people in the most powerful country in the world, why can't they do it everywhere?
So, should we sit back and cry about the thousands of Afgans who we killed? Yes, that will do us alot of good. Instead we should dwell on the fact that we took out one of the world's evilest governments. Also, and being a female yourself this should have even more signifigance for you, we should consider every single woman who can now live a decent life in their country thanks to the US removing the Taliban. Now, it doesn't look so bad if we consider every woman in Afganistan a life gained, as their life a year ago could hardly be called a life. Please consider this when you say that the US made a fool of itself and that they are acting simply on revenge, not justice.
Would it be just to simply let the terrorists live freely and gain even more support? Would it be just to allow them to claim that their "mission" was a success? This would simply show that we are afraid of them. So before you fly your anti war flag, think about what would happen if we hadn't began the military campaign in the Middle East.
Would there probably be a few thousand more innocent Afgans alive? yes
but..
Would there tens of thousands of women there living a life tens of thousands of times better than they had a year ago? Most defidently not.
Would the Taliban still be controlling Afganistan? yes
Would Osamo Bin Laden have even more supporters than he had a year ago? yes
Would the Al Quedia (sp?) terrorist network try to kill even more than they did on 9-11? yes

and I'm sorry if I offended you by using profanity (which i edited myself).

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Andy- The fact is that the United States has the most accurate military technology available. Mistakes happen. And as far as the food labels, it seems a little foolish on your part to let that mistake overshadow the fact that they did indeed drop a large amount of food for the people there.
Once again, to answer the question of what has been achieved, the fact that terrorists can't truly say that their killing was succesful was achieved, and because of this they can't slaughter innocent lives again wothout knowing that their entire country will be wiped out. This will obviously lower the number of innocent lives lost, though it will not be considered by anti war people who will cry about the innocent Afgans killed. And, as mentioned earlier, tens ( probably hundreds) of thousands of women in Afganistan can now live a real human life.
So please consider this as you call the United States a global bully, because what the US has done is saved millions of innocent people all around the world who would be killed in future terrorist attacks had we not bombed Afganitan.
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This is my opinion, I'm sorry if it offended you.

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I agree with you mooses41. I think these attacks are very necessary and I think we should have attacked them after the embassey bombings becouse then mayby there would be no 9/11 attacks. We have to fight against evil and protect ourselves. If we dont they we are open to be attacked again and again, untill our country is destroyed.

I agree with moose that the bombing had to occur, and I also agree with Andy, who usually shares my viewpoints. The USA is viewed as a bully around the world, and we do need to change our foriegn policy and show that we will not stand for Israel killing Palestinians/Palestinians killing Israelis. We need to change our foreign policy, and with war happy officials in office, I doubt we will, but you should also know that war is a vital part of the world economy...

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Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan.

No clue who the guy pictured in my avatar is, but its a great picture nonetheless!

Yes, I am anti-war, which I will admit to anyone, under any circumstance, without shame. As for your comments, mooses41, you're just as welcome to share your views as I am mine. The only problem I have with the United States' views of appropriate action is that we automatically assume that everyone in the world, given the chance, would automatically want to live in this "great" nation, with our values, morals, and ethics. You called particular attention toward the plight of women in Afghanistan and their oppression by a militaristic, male-dominated government -- but in how many countries in the world is that true? Are you aware that women in Saudi Arabia (one of our allies whom we will bend over backwards not to offend for fear that we'll lose our precious oil suppliers) are also denied basic rights? That they are not permitted to drive, have their faces uncovered, or claim their lives as their own over the men in their family? Yet we let that government stand without repercussion.

I never said that the attacks should not have occurred -- certainly some form of retaliation was necessary, if only to see that some form of justice had been accomplished. What I can't stand is the idea that the United States is always right and other cultures are always wrong -- a message that we are bombarded with all too frequently through all forms of our media, including television, movies, newspapers, bumperstickers, and so forth. Yet regardless of our actions, the terrorists do claim their mission as a success -- which it most definately was. Certainly they did not consider the innocent lives that would be lost, that's just a means to gain the statement they were seeking: the United States is not invulnerable, and ought to stop thinking so much of itself.

Let me ask this: Where was all this "patriotism" on September 10th? If the attacks had never occured, would the majority of Americans even know of the conditions in Afghanistan, much less care?

Just as you, mooses41, this is only my opinion, with which anyone is welcome to disagree.

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Walk Beyond...

Did you really care? The world changed the next day...

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Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan.

No clue who the guy pictured in my avatar is, but its a great picture nonetheless!

Do we? Where in our actions so far have we done this?

Problem is, we can't afford to call Saudi Arabia on such issues, cause we need our bases there (to say nothing of their oil, as well). It's a sad reality, but it's true. We can only push for human rights where we can afford it.

I see the exact opposite, actually. It seems to me that nowadays we get bombarded with the message that america is a great bully, whose government is one of hypocrisy and whose citizens are ignorant, complacent slobs. that seems to be the image perpetuated on the world these days. I certainly don't see the 'we're always right' idea being spread at all. The cultural stereotype IS one of an arrogant bully, and it's completely untrue. So's the other extreme, but that's neither here nor there.

The terrorists didn't consider the innocent lives that would be lost??? I doubt that.

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Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

As a matter of fact, I have studied Muslim and Islamic cultures, and I do care about the plight of peoples in tyranically-run countries. But I refuse to submit them to my own culturally biased interpretation of what is "good for them" or what is "civilized". That is for their own culture to decide.

500 years after the fact, many people consider Christopher Columbus a villian. His initial contact with the "new world" brought about the eventual deaths of more than 40 million people, and the forcible relocation of millions more, all because Europeans and later Americans thought they were more civilized, superior, and could better use the land and its resources than those societies that had been flourishing here for tens of thousands of years without their interference.

500 years from now, what will history think of the United States?

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Walk Beyond...

Melissa...my new fav. Mod. Thank you.


I hate how America assumes that we're the moral leaders and can teach pretty much every country out there something about the way they are. I admit that things have progressed over the past hundred years. Were you aware that we almost went to war with Cuba because one of our ships kitchens blew up and sunk? Or that we took over the Philippines back in 1901 because our president had a dream in which God told him that they needed our help and Christian teachings? America has a shady past and by no means is perfect.

So what would you consider "some form of retaliation"? It is pointless to point out what you feel is wrong without suggesting what they should have actually done. Can you show me a quote from the US government claiming that we are always right? I doubt it. The fact is that this mindset comes from people who choose to believe it theirselves, and, as you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So the fact that you "can't stand" it is an extremely childish reason for being against the US efforts to protect ourselves and other democratic countrys worldwide.

and, I agree with mrk on the fact that we can only push for human rights where we can afford it. So to let the fact that we didn't fix every human rights problem worldwide overshadow the fact that we did indeed liberate hundreds of thousands of women in Afganistan is ridiculous.

You claim that the United States is out to protect democratic nations worldwide, and that we "liberated" women in Afghanistan.

Since when has Afghanistan been democratic, and when did those women ask for our interference?

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Walk Beyond...

Melissa is right when she says that the US has a view that everyone in the world would like to live there. I've travelled to the USA seven times, and every single time have been asked if I'd like to live there. To be fair, whilst this friendliness is one of the great things about Americans, they never quite seem to grasp that England is my home, where I was born and it's where I want to live. They usually come out with something about all the shops that are open 24 hours, or the cheap petrol, or great weather, or the freedom you get you live your own life.

Having said that, it's not the average American's fault that he/she is in this position - I believe it's media at fault. Think of it this way - how many US TV news programmes report foreign stories that don't involve Americans? In my experience, pretty few. I spent 4 weeks in California in 2000, and England was mentioned twice - once when a US company was opening a factory there, and once when there was a train crash and an American was on board. I also had to wait to the very end of a CNN programme to find out news about the sunken Russian submarine Kursk, having had to sit through 55 minutes of US news, politics and even sports results first. Contrast this with TV here, where foreign stories are always a staple part of broadcats, even if no English people are involved.

If you take the Middle East and Northern Ireland out of the US TV reports too, then the exposure to foreign cultures and alternative lifestyles that the average US citizen is exposed to is extremely limited. It's this ignorance that perpetuates the myth that the USA is the world's greatest country - no particular country has that honour.

Again, this is my own opinion. I don't expect everyone to agree with it - indeed I suspect most people here won't. I'd also like to say that this discussion has been great so far, considering that it's such a heated topic.

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Andy Rathe

Andy, what makes this such a bad thing? After all, don't most English people think that England is the best country for them? The fact is that most people feel that the country they are in is the best (with the exception of poor and oppressed people). Americans are just more open about it. After all, America is a country of immigrants, so there are alot of people who wanted to move here/want to move here (from countrys like Cuba, etc.). That being said, I respect the fact that not everybody wants to live here, in fact, i I was born in a country like England or Austrailia, I probably wouldn't move here.

Melissa, I guess I should have worded that differently. I meant to say that we are out to protect ourselves and other countrys who don't want their citizens killed by terrorists. As far as the women in Afganistan, I guess you are correct that they didn't ask us for help, but how could they. Imagine if a year ago a women in Afganistan spoke out and said that she would like the United States to free her from having her face covered and being abused by males. She would be jailed or most likely killed. If you would to ask every women in Afganistan who no longer has to live like that if they'd like to go back to the way things were a year ago, I'd be every cent I have that the number who would like to go back would be extremely low.

Thank you, mooses41, you're right in that the goal the United States has now is to protect not only ourselves from terrorist actions, but also (by extension) other countries as well. That, I feel, is a decent and laudable goal, but in reality I also feel that it is a futile one. Just as everyone wants to say that their own country is the best (a generalization, I know), there are people that won't admit that other countries may be better, and instead they will use any means possible to try to prove that those countries aren't so good (such as terrorism).

I guess my ultimate goal (if I were able to have such a thing) would be to allow vastly different cultures to live in peace with one another, allowing that different cultures can exist, and not having one claiming superiority over another in any way. Then there would be no reason for either terrorism or the retaliatory measures of war.

Quite an idealist, eh?

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Walk Beyond...

My favorite quote fits Melissa's idealology very well...

"Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. We say that people are proud of being rich, or clever, or good-looking, but they are not. They are proud of being richer, or cleverer, or better-looking than others. If everyone else became equally rich, or clever, or good-looking there would be nothing to be proud about. It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone." -C.S. Lewis

It's not necessarily a bad thing that Americans consider their country the best in the world - as you rightly say, a lot of people would pick their own country as the best.

The point I'm making is that the attacks of Sept. 11th and US media coverage of the rest of the world - or rather the lack of it -are linked. If US TV fails to report what impact America's foreign policy has on the individual countries concerned, then it's citizens are left uninformed and uneducated about how America influences the rest of the world.

The pertinent case here is the historical US support of Isreal, and the Isreali's constant attacks on the Palestinians. I may be wrong, but I reckon that the average American had no idea that their country was supporting one ethnic group (Isrealis) over another (Palestinians), and so therefore could not understand why Palestinians hate the US so much. Having seen both sides, the only thing I'm surprised at was that something like the Sept. 11th attacks didn't occur sooner.

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Andy Rathe

I would agree. But conversely, other countries (particularly in the middle east) also have a responsibility to report and display an image of the US that is objective, not the hateful bias that is taught in (many, not all) of the schools in the region.

The average america indeed DOES know that the US pretty much supports Israel, its just that their image of the PLO is that of a terrorist group or the like. I'm not saying that this image is fair, its just the image i think most americans have.

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Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

Fair point - I hadn't thought of that.

If this is the case, then it more or less backs up my argument, as both the PLO and the Isreali army are as bad as each other in many ways. Therefore Americans are not getting a complete picture if the image they have is of just the PLO being the bad guys.

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Andy Rathe

I support the war, but regret the loss of any innocent civilians. I think Americans forget that war results in death.

As for Osama/Usama - whatever it is - he can not be dead enough for me. Even if he is lying in pieces in a ravine, it is just not enough. It is very intersting, I'm not quite what exactly would satisfy me, but death from KIDNEY FAILURE? Geez, I was hoping for more . . .

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Nothing like a big woodie first thing in the morning and before going to bed at night.