The Gay Marriage Thread

[rjholla2003]

Because it will magically turn my wife into a groom, or I'll get a funny feeling in my pants when looking at guys since I can legally marry them, or...something. Apparently there's something for me to be scared of as a straight American if Gay Americans get the right to marry. I'm not sure exactly what would happen since no one will tell me, but I know it's something!


And yes, I'm still waiting for a taker of my "Great Sexuality Challenge" two posts ago.

[GAmFanboy]

What if Gay Marriage was Normal nowadays and Hetero was Considered A Threat to America? I Wonder if people would act the same way.

IMO
- If Whitney & Bobby Can get Married
- If Britney & KFed Can get Married

Than there is nothing wrong with Gay Marriage

[tntornadox]

I find it hilarious a similar Amendment (define marriage as strictly between a man and a woman) proposition went before the people here back in 2006... and it failed... in Tennessee.

Chew on that...

[Andrew P]

Ok...tell me how two gay men married to each other and two gay women married to each other can procreate naturally without the use of a third party.

If straight marriages were considered a threat to America (and no need to capitalize the first letter of nearly every damn word, didn't anyone teach you how to type?) we would have been extinct a long time ago.

And you are now comparing celebrities marriages to gay marriages? You are really reaching now, aren't you? Most people know that most celebrities marriages are done for convenience, not for love. I really don't see how two straight celebrities getting married to each other can equal whatever it the point was you failed to make.

[rjholla2003]

Somehow, the more I read this topic, the more lost I get...

[coasterlove]

I voted "We're wasting our time on it".

This thread's gay.

[Steven]

It's going in circles, especially since no one will defend their arguments now when asked.

[Disney2Gardens]

Originally Posted by Ryan F

Animals cannot give consent; humans can. Relating homosexual or inter-racial relationships to bestiality is just wrong. End of that discussion.

While the universal declaration of human rights is not entirely law, it just goes to show that every human has the right to be married and found a family. Making it illegal for anyone to do so is doing nothing more than taking away their rights as human beings.
Now, not everybody has to use that right, but when someone decides they want to exercise their right to get married, then why should they be stopped?

The Universal Declaration of human rights? You got to be kidding me, what kind of liberal left wing garbage is that. Who gave you that right. Yourself? God gave people rights and if you look in the Bible there isn't anything on Gay marriage. It condemns homosexuality.

[Andrew P]

^Not everyone follows the bible to the "T", so ease up, eh?

[Steven]

And Disney, you have yet to quote something other than Leviticus. I want to see it.

And Andrew... I don't want him to ease up... I want him to say something instead of Leviticus and something general like he just said.

I'm going to church now... I hope to see something when I get back.

[Disney2Gardens]

Originally Posted by Steven

And Disney, you have yet to quote something other than Leviticus. I want to see it.

And Andrew... I don't want him to ease up... I want him to say something instead of Leviticus and something general like he just said.

I'm going to church now... I hope to see something when I get back.

Romans 1 26:27" Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Matt 19: 4-6" Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.

I Cor. 6:9-10 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

[apsterling]

Originally Posted by ElBarto

Precisely. And people with your beliefs are the minority, so they, and you, lose.

The government protects the minority. They're currently not. It's a double edged sword my friend.

Originally Posted by Disney2Gardens

The Universal Declaration of human rights? You got to be kidding me, what kind of liberal left wing garbage is that. Who gave you that right. Yourself? God gave people rights and if you look in the Bible there isn't anything on Gay marriage. It condemns homosexuality.

The Universal Declaration of Human rights is based off our National Constitution. They both essentially state that we're endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights. Your creator may not be my creator, but either way, the rights are inalienable. If this is one of those rights, why are we aliening them?

And not everyone is Christian, and will not follow the bible. Not to start a huge thing, but is Allah or Yahweh your God? Is The Flying Spaghetti Monster your God? Are they any less than your God in their eyes? My point is, your beliefs don't match others, and it doesn't make their beliefs instantly wrong, or yours instantly correct. It's a belief. They believe it's okay to marry, and it's non-destructive in your eyes to anyone but themselves.

[Jerry S]

I haven't been reading this thread much, but I'm surprised this is even a question. If two people want to marry each other, let them.

If people are really basing their judgment on religion, well, you shouldn't mix church and state, so mixing the commandments with the laws is irresponsible.

[Steven]

Disney2Gardens: Which version of the Bible did you use?

[TexasTornadoRules]

Whichever version takes out words and replaces them with their own interpretation, apparently.

King James version of 1 Cor 6:9-10:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Also, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as drawn up by the UN: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[rjholla2003]

Originally Posted by apsterling

And not everyone is Christian, and will not follow the bible. Not to start a huge thing, but is Allah or Yahweh your God?

I'm a Christian, so I must say "YES!" to your question. Let's see who gets that. Hehehe.

Since no one responded to my "Great Sexuality Challenge", I'm just going to assume that it's because no one can think of the time where they made a conscious decision on their sexuality. Since heterosexuals and homosexuals didn't choose it, Even if it is sin, why not let them marry and have the same rights that straight couples enjoy as a union that protect each other? Their love isn't your love, nor does it affect your love.

And why is homosexuality the only sin people rally against? Why not condemn murders, or liars, or thiefs, or adulterers, or any of the numerous sins and sinners out there. A sin is a sin is a sin, and we shouldn't weigh them any differently. That's God's job anyway.

[Steven]

apsterling: Allah and Yahweh are used in the Christian faith as one of the many names of God, as is Jehovah and a bunch of others.

Also, the KJV describes effeminate as someone like a cross-dresser, or even the flamboyant Gays. There's a difference between a flamboyant gay and a gay.

[Disney2Gardens]

Originally Posted by Steven

Disney2Gardens: Which version of the Bible did you use?

I got the New International Version passages from Biblegateway.com.

[Steven]

Well, here's the issue I have with many of the versions of the Bible. Some of them reflect editorial feelings. I primarily use NIV, but I keep a King James Version (KJV) and Holman Christian Standard Bible (HSCB).

Furthermore, many of the other versions do not specifically quote homosexuality in 1 Corinthians, but they do mention effeminate people, such as men acting feminine or doing womanly things. Furthermore, there are scholars that agree that it's mostly about condemning loose morals in general (like sleeping around with a bunch of people).

Matthew 19:4-6 is driving his point further regarding divorce between man and woman, as a direct answer from a Pharisee, and reaffirming the purpose of marriage in general. In fact, Jesus noted that the only time it should be permitted is in cases of adultery.

Romans 1:26-27: This is a toughie. But, it seems Paul is condemning a lot of stuff mankind was guilty of overall in Chapter 1, such as overall sexual immorality. It does seem to condemn homosexual behavior and warns Christians not to be self-righteous when others fall to sin. But fast forward to Chapter 2, where it says in the first two verses (KJV)...

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Others note that Romans 1 is about a group of Christians who left the church and started practicing Paganism. They were practicing heterosexuals, and when they left, they were immoral in their sexual practices while continuing to be heterosexual. In that, God somehow persuaded them to perform Homosexual acts, which was against their nature.

Now, if someone is born Homosexual, it is their nature to be so, while being against their nature to be Heterosexual (and therefore sinful to even try to act Heterosexual). The opposite holds true. If I decided that one day I wanted to sleep with another guy, I would be committing a sin, because it is unnatural for me to do so (I am VERY heterosexual).

The verses themselves do not lend to committed relationships themselves, including homosexual ones. There are many gays that wish to be in a committed relationship, and therefore want to share the same rights and privileges thereof. It doesn't hurt you or me by any means.

The funny thing. I stopped at the bookstore this afternoon and read Eminem's bio. He talks about performing "Stan" with Elton John, and how he was labeled homophobic by Gay groups for using the word "f-ggot" on a couple of occasions. Aside from noting that even Elton understood the context in which Eminem used that word, he goes on and talks about how Elton is married to another guy, and that he is happy for them. He goes on further and notes that it's not his place to say what happens in their bedroom or with their relationship. In no way did he go and condemn it.

[Disney2Gardens]

^^ You have some good points except people are not born homosexual.

[James]

lol. Isnt this topic about Gay Marriage, not the bible?

Human rights and god are two different things.

[Steven]

Ever try to ask one and see if they decided to be one, or if they always had the feelings for the same sex?

Try it. It's fun.

Yeah, I woke up one day and decided that I'm going to be totally heterosexual (seriously... I've always known that I have been strongly attracted to girls... even chasing them as early as 3... seriously). I have had two relatives live that lie (that they were heterosexual, even getting married and having kids), and both of them ended up in a world of hurt because of it. One of them continued to live that lie until he died, and the other came clean, and is living better than what he did when married. His kids accept it and welcome it a lot more. The kids (my cousins) all straight themselves.

There is a lot more evidence to refute your claim (there are several studies that it's caused by genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure). , plus there is even more evidence that it cannot be changed, and that attempting to do so usually results in psychological and psychiatric harm.

Did I mention I go to a Southern Baptist church... where while we have our conservatives, we have others who understand things otherwise, and yet we all get along because we're all about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

Originally Posted by James

lol. Isnt this topic about Gay Marriage, not the bible?

Human rights and god are two different things.

Wrong. God has EVERYTHING to do with Human Rights. If you actually cracked open a Bible and read it you'd see that.

[rjholla2003]

Originally Posted by Disney2Gardens

^^ You have some good points except people are not born homosexual.

Disney2Gardens, if that's the case, I dare you to take on the question I posed earlier. You posted several times since then, so I'd guess that you're aware of it. Here's a refresher:

Nature. I love this argument. Besides the fact that there are homosexual activities in animals out in nature, I have a challenge for everyone here.

THE GREAT 'SEXUALITY' CHALLENGE!
I challenge all of you to answer this question: Did you choose your sexuality? Seriously. Did you have a conscience decision that you made to decide whether you were straight or gay (or...otherwise?) I personally don't remember deciding to be a straight male. All I know is waaay back in the summer before 3rd grade I started liking girls. This was "confirmed" when in 3rd grade I accidently brushed against my "girlfriend's" backside while standing in line and *ahem* liked it. Granted, I didn't know what was going on, but I knew one thing: I definitely liked girls.

One of my gay friends had a flawless explination on what makes a person's sexuality. I'll have to clean it up, but I think the point will still be clear.

"You like whatever gets you aroused".

Let your brain chew on that.

Steven, looks like we got the early skirt-chasing in common. Although you beat me by a few years...maybe. My earliest vivid memories occur when I was 4...I think. I don't remember this story myself, but I do remember a story in which I was caught kissing a girl under a table in Kindergarten.

[Steven]

Let's just say I discovered what the opposite sex was about early on .

[James]

Originally Posted by Steven

Wrong. God has EVERYTHING to do with Human Rights. If you actually cracked open a Bible and read it you'd see that.

But once more.This is a topic about gay marriage. Not the bible.
And how do you know if I read said book or not? I've not mentioned religious status in any of my posts on TN, ever.

[Steven]

Well, the path of this thread has taken to include the religious reasoning for and against it, and it has everything to do with the discussion because of it, I'm sorry to say.

If you have a problem with it, tough. We're not discussing religion itself (there is a separate thread for it). As an admin on here, that's how it stands.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by Disney2Gardens

^^ You have some good points except people are not born homosexual.

Right. Because homosexuals just LOVE being persecuted, frowned down upon, harassed by peers in school, and being discriminated against.

Why would anybody CHOOSE to be gay, especially in an intolerant society like ours?

You're either born homosexual or heterosexual. You can't possibly choose what gender you're attracted to.

Did you choose to be heterosexual Disney2Gardens? Or did you always know that you were attracted to the opposite sex, as if you were born that way?

I already know your response to this. You won't accept it. Do you know why I know this? Because in order for you to accept that a certain percentage of the population are actually born attracted to the same gender means that your religious views will then have to be put into question. And God forbid if you ever have to do such a thing.

[tofattoride]

Very simple. After the fall of man in the garden of Eden sin came on the earth. People are tempted by different sins. I am not tempted by beer but I have a good friend who gets drunk on it. I am tempted by over eating (as my name implies) and being a glutton. The lists could go on and on. We all have are temptations because there is sin in the world and there always will be until the Lord Jesus comes back.

Now, as far as the sexual sins. I believe that a man can be tempted by another man just as I can be tempted by another women. That does not mean that he has to go against God and defile himself with a man nor me with another women other than my wife. I am sure you can think of a ton more sexual sins that would not be right, but people are tempted by them anyway.

My big issue for gay marriage is kids. If they can marry and then adopt that is just crazy. Even if they can't marry and adopt that is still crazy. I know it will be asked what if the kid is in an bad home? He or she would be better off in a good foster home or even in a GOOD group home than be in the "loving" home of 2 gays. It is not natural and it is against Gods word to be gay plain and simple. I do not understand how anyone christian or not could read the Bible and say that they don't see where homosexuality is wrong. You may not agree but the book says it is wrong.

The issue is you have Christians saying that it is wrong and non Christians saying that it is OK. This will seem really prickish but I don't know how els to say it. When God saves you he does a work in your life. I do not expect for a non Christian to understand why it is wrong or why abortion is wrong. All I can do is pray God saves them with the same amazing grace that he saved me with. Until God saved me I was much more liberal on things and I saw things more gray than black and white. No I am not saying that liberals are non saved and republicans are. God still shows me all the time where I am wrong and how I need to change so please don't think that I think I have arrived by any means.

I guess I can't say anymore on the topic if we are not allowed to bring faith into it.

[Ryan F]

Originally Posted by tofattoride

My big issue for gay marriage is kids. If they can marry and then adopt that is just crazy. Even if they can't marry and adopt that is still crazy. I know it will be asked what if the kid is in an bad home? He or she would be better off in a good foster home or even in a GOOD group home than be in the "loving" home of 2 gays. It is not natural and it is against Gods word to be gay plain and simple. I do not understand how anyone christian or not could read the Bible and say that they don't see where homosexuality is wrong. You may not agree but the book says it is wrong.

Do you have any proof that a gay couple cannot provide a loving home for a child?
Homosexual parents will have to go through the exact same screening process for adoption as heterosexual parents. If the couple can provide a safe and loving environment, as well as provide them with the essentials (food, clothing, shelter, etc) then they should be able to raise a child.
There is no scientific proof that gay parents mean gay children; the child would have the same chance of being gay as living with two straight parents.

[Steven]

tofattoride: I brought my faith into it, Disney did, so I don't see otherwise.

My own view is that we did not have the understanding of things then that we do now... I believe Science to be a gift from God (it's how we use it that can be an issue).

Plus, as I alluded to in previous posts, the Bible has been subject to editorial bias, even among different versions, and when the Bible was originally written, our knowledge was rather limited. While I believe the Bible is the divine truth, we have not been able to accurately translate it into our language. That, combined with our understanding of things now (along with lots of prayer) leads me to to believe that some things may just be plain wrong.

As far as Gays becoming parents... I don't see that to be an issue. In fact, when Arkansas passed their law regarding adoption at the same time as California's, I was reminded why I never visit.