...by asking congress for a $35 billion dollar handout, payed by YOU, the hard working tax payers of America.

They claim without a government handout, the industry will fail and that they've already made so many sacrifices like shutting down plants and slashing jobs.

However,

...that hasn't stopped the CEO's of these companies from cashing $16 - $28 million dollar salary paychecks in the past year alone, OR flying to Washington on their $36 million dollar private luxury jets.



This video was from over two weeks ago when they asked for $25 billion (not the $35 billion they're asking for now)

Isn't it outrageous? It's like a person rolling up to your house in a Mercedes Benz S-600 and asking you to borrow money.

Ah did a little research, looks like the corporate jet fleets are "being sold" as a result to the public backlash and PR embarrassment brought on by the CNN and ABC News stories two weeks ago.

I'd love to give them more of my money. They did such a good job with all the other stuff they've been given, they really have. They are making the most fantastic cars to drive. All of them have really beefed up their corporations and are exploring new, far more efficient ways to get people around using cars. Not like those other foreign automakers trying to cash in on the american consumer. Especially those with long commutes that just want to drive a really efficient car to work and school and back and the odd thing every now and then. No, give me an American tank with 3 fold out TV's, 20 cup-holders big enough to hold a big gulp, included blu-ray player and other bells and whistles to distract people from what they are actually buying. [/sarcastic rant]

These people are crazy, I don't care how great their plans to use this money are they shouldn't get it. They've had the same problems with so many different cars, my own personal experience knowing about the ford windstar, freestar, and aerostar thing. All the same minivan with the same transmission doomed to fail and the company knows this but they sell it anyway. Really, I look at American cars vs. imports lately and it's no wonder the imports are doing so well. They deserve it. If these people want their businesses saved they ought to man-up and take it like all the other businesses in this country and do it themselves.

This really gets to me because we the american people work real hard, some high-order executives have a great plan to make a lot of money while they destroy our economy. And now they want us to give them more money as though the last original bit wasn't enough for their oversized swimming pools, personal jets, labyrinth mansions they drive golf-carts through and not to mention all the things to keep these in perfect condition while they don't even use it because they spend all their time finding more ways to make money while someone else suffers.

I had to write a research paper on the huge 700 bailout and after the professor went through and explained in exact detail how we are in this disaster now, I see no reason whatsoever to give money to anyone. Let them go, they deserve it. We are teaching people that it's ok to screw with millions of people's money because it will be covered for you no matter what.

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Take THAT Magic Kingdom!

Hmm, let me think for a second...

- Toyota cars which are made in Japan cost about the same as American Cars, Have more MPG, and are not asking for a Bailout.

- Ford and GM which are made in America cost about the same as Toyota cars, Have less MPG, and are asking for a Bailout.

Solution: SELL THE COMPANIES TO JAPAN OR KOREA AND WE WON'T HAVE TO WORRY!!!!!!! END OF PROBLEM.

You want me to think the Gov. should give the cars our money. Fine, But the CEO's have to live under house arrest, Mail, and Calls Monitored... And they can only buy stuff from Skymall Magazine... And the only food they can eat is Jenny Craig Factory Seconds. Also, No Electricity. And No Heat/ Air Conditioning in the Winter/ Summer.

Then I'll agree to the Bailout.

Here's other concessions that are going to be made:

- Automaker CEOs reduce their pay to $1, also reducing pay of other top execs
- UAW will drop controversial Jobs Bank (which people get paid to sit around and do nothing when there's no work)
- Automakers will delay payment for retirement fund
- Sale of, or terminating the leases of, the corporate jets
- Look at paring down their brands

... amongst other things.

Honestly, I really think the automakers should declare bankruptcy, then shed themselves of the UAW contracts altogether through a judge. Then, impose fair, efficient labor contracts (assuming the UAW would want to continue working). If not, bring in the replacement workers that want to work. I would also cut all of the top execs pay to $1, remove any "golden parachute" incentives, and have them adopt the same manufacturing techniques as Toyota and Honda.

Only then would I get behind any sort of bailout, which must be used to fast-track new fuel-saving or alternative fuel technologies that are more efficient than the options available today.

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Everytime I ride a coaster, it valleys. I've never been on a stalled coaster or had one roll back (except Wicked Twister and what was Superman: Ultimate Escape, which does that by design).

I don't want to bail them out for two reasons.

1. They did not compete: So many other car companies within the past 10 years have provided much better vehicles than GM or Ford if you ask me, and Toyota and Honda paved the way for more fuel efficient vehicles while GM cranked out Suburbans, Yukons, and huge trucks. News flash: American's like to save money, gas is expensive, people want to save money on gas. I have no clue why it took so long for GM and Ford to finally realize that fuel efficiency is important...

So now everyone went with the better option in terms of fuel efficiency, and now GM and Ford want us to make up for their inability to compete against foreign cars over the past decade.

2. Why not bail everyone one? First a Wall Street/Bank Foreclosure Bailout, now a Vehicle Manufacturer Bailout...hey, is there a line in front of the Congress for businesses that want a bailout? Why not bailout everyone? Hooray for lack of fiscal responsibility!

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Thornton to Heatley all day, every day.

Be realistic everyone. Where were these complaints and what not for the big $700 billion bailout?

*crickets*

Yeah, thought so. Let's see, with the Big 3 going under, I'm sure there are enough jobs in this recession to employ these people. Congress got it all wrong from the beginning, bailing people out in the first place. If none of the other schmucks got bailed out, the Big 3 would not be asking for a handout either.


By the way, my GM car is running great and over 30 MPG.

And lose American jobs. Brilliant. You win for dumbest comment ever. Let me say this again, AND LOSE AMERICAN JOBS.

I keep forgetting how easy it is to find a job these days, let alone one that gives me half a shot at a living wage.

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Idk if anyones said this or not (Don't feel like reading any of that ^^^) but, has anyone stopped to think about all the secondary industries that could fail if the auto business fails? Cars need tires, right, well, that's rubber... Cars need windows right, well that's glass... I mean, it's not only the auto business we need to think about in the situation...

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It's iconic for me to drive by Lordsville, OH on my way to Cedar Point. That's a small car GM plant that makes the Cobalt. I'm scared of the backlash on Mid-America there. I'm grossly disappointed in seeing the ghosts of auto manufacturing in New Jersey.

I was looking at a beautiful Cadillac today and realizing how I would miss it. I wish the American companies could better compete in small cars with the foreign companies. The Euro Division of Ford sures looks more positive than the mainland US. I'm concerned as well about the wide reach of the secondary industries that feed into the Big 3, the American jobs.

I've been wondering about Big Oil/Energy, divesting from oil, not upgrading/building refineries. Is the Energy answer just around the corner or are they acting like slugs sitting on the value of the commodity of oil? I thought BP was starting to shine in diverse energy industries but a new CEO wanted to focus away from that and stay onto Big Oil.

Im tired of the American identity being raped by globalization. Is there anything ingenious/inspiring we do in this country left that generally is ours, that doesn't have a headquarters in Zurich, Hong Kong? I really don't care about Hollywood.

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Thrillnetwork Moderator - Sophomore Original sn: CHILLERLC1
2008 & 2009 TN Coaster Draft Champion
You knew I wanted the other repeat too

Good point, but the real question is whether or not this bailout money will actually do ANYTHING.

Some are speculating that the $35 billion these 3 big auto companies are asking for won't do anything if they continue to mismanage their businesses. "It will only delay what is inevitable." A few years down the road, they'll be in the same rut and us taxpayers will be out $35 billion.

If you look at what the CEOs are ceding (including asking for a government board that can order changes in their operations)... it might be worth looking at.

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Everytime I ride a coaster, it valleys. I've never been on a stalled coaster or had one roll back (except Wicked Twister and what was Superman: Ultimate Escape, which does that by design).

Basically this is how I look at it
Bailout = possibility of companies getting back on their feet.
No bailout = we see a great depression that will make the 1920's look like a picnic.

Found this clip interesting from an article I just read on my phone: CNBC reported that GM and Chrysler said today that "they would be open to a merger if the U.S. government mandated it as a condition for providing the emergency financing they say is needed to allow them to survive into 2009.

Thoughts on Ford (the original American brand) who I beleive is in the best condition right now:

• This week Ford asked for a $9 million line of credit ONLY IF needed, right now they still think there is a great chance they will not need it but still want it to be in reserve encase of emergency if car sales drop more.
• They said their C.E.O. would make a salary of $1 a year if they were to accept any government money and would not get a raise until it was paid back. This leads me to beleive they don't expect to use it because if they do and can't pay it back for years that's a lot of money lost on the C.E.O's part and you know he will not take that for long.
• Ford also has 6 new gas saving vehicles they will be introducing into America from their UK line in 2010. Ranging from small cars getting somewhere between 35 m.p.g to 65 m.p.g. even a delivery type vans for business's that would achieve a mid to high 20 m.p.g rating range.
• Ford also reported that they expected to break even or report a before tax profit by 2011. While this seems a great time from now it is a very positive sign. Maybe due to the vehicles being released mentioned in the above bullet?

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Right, that's what they were going for. Screwing us. Not keeping their company on its feet. It was all about screwing us.

They're an American company, and I know they've changed our industry in the past, so I think it's important to allow them a little help from us every once in a while.

It's not like our country would be better off without our car companies.

GM's Canadian Headquarters are located in the city next to mine. If GM goes under, Oshawa will be close to screwed. Only a few years ago Oshawa was a one industry town, and if GM were to go under, so would Oshawa, leaving a ghost town. Luckily the city has grown quite a bit since then and could survive without GM, but a good 50-80% of it's population would be in trouble.

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ThrillNetwork Moderator
The user formerly known as WildeFyre
UOIT Mechanical Engineering Student

If GMC (i.e. Chevrolet, Saturn, Pontiac, etc) , Ford (Ford, Lincoln, Mercury), and Dodge/Chrysler file for Chapter 11, then that would open the doors for Asian companies like Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, KIA, and Nissan to step up their markets in the US, which are already very popular to begin with. So it's not as if the automobile market in the US will be dead completely.

And even if the American companies were to sell to the Japanese/South Korean companies, which I don't think will happen, their employees would just have different employers. Those companies probably would rather keep afloat or die trying than give up and fold to the foreign-base companies.

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ThrillNetwork Lead Moderator (Originally known as Hurricane)

It's time to play some DEFENSE!

Ha.

How is asking for billions of OUR tax dollars not screwing us? Keeping their company on its feet? Tell that to the CEO's that have mismanaged those companies for YEARS. Why should taxpayers have to rescue them for bad decisions made by a dozen of executives? I don't expect you, a 19 year old who is probably not working right now and not paying taxes to understand that.

You're right. Our country will suffer if these 3 companies go down due to a loss of jobs, but a bailout is not going to solve anything. And that's what this topic is about. It'll only just delay the inevitable.

The big 3 need to file for bankruptcy, and restructure into smaller, better managed firms. A $35 billion dollar handout to "hold them over" while the economy is struggling isn't the answer.

I agree they have dug a hole for themselves, but honestly, the death of the American auto industry is alot more important than AIG or Fannie or Freddie. So I don't understand why there is such backlash over this, but nobody said a thing while we continue to bail out AIG while they take vacations to Europe...

But throw in millions of jobs at stake- they bring up inconsequential bullcrap- they flew there on private jets- let's lynch them in the square! No other CEO in history has flown in a private jet.... give me a break.

It's not entirely the company's fault- I partly blame the UAW who has made the Big Three uncompetitive with their ridiculous wages and benefits packages.

^ That's the problem. The CEO's of these companies know that jobs will be at stake if they fail, even though Ford has already cut some 51,000 jobs already. They're using that as leverage to get taxpayers to pony up money to bail them out for their mistakes.

The point being is that while they claimed to be making so many "sacrifices" such as shutting down production plants and cutting jobs, the heads of these companies were not sacrificing their $20,000 round trip flights from Detroit to Capitol Hill and were asking Congress for American taxpayer money. Granted they are contracted for an annual pay of a certain amount and guaranteed certain perks, but the fact that these companies are saying they are in need of financial aid and are "burning through cash" is outrageous when millions are spent on things such as executive compensation, private travel, and perks.

It shows that even with bailout money, these executives "don't get it." With this help, what makes you think they'll do anything to change the way they manage their companies? I'll guaranteed in about 5 years, we'll be hearing from them again.

Sure, the GM and Ford corporate jet fleets are up for sale, but that's only due to public backlash. Do you really think if ABC News and CNN didn't reveal these 3 CEO's taking lavish thousand dollar flights to D.C. that they'd put their jets up for sale? No. It's only done as a response to bad PR. It says nothing about how they will plan to turn these companies around and manage them properly. What we're doing is throwing away $35 billion just because the 3 big auto makers had the balls to approach Congress because the banking industry had the opportunity to ask for government bailouts.

What these auto makers need to do is file for bankruptcy, reorganize and restructure from the ground up. Then we'll be confident to say that 5 years down the road, this won't occur again.

The UAW AND the execs have blame in this.

I like American vehicles. I've owned four foreign vehicles ( 3 were German Fords), and they all had their merits. I'm NOT bashing foreign cars one bit. The American auto industry has already taken a lot of cues from the foriegn automakers, and they clearly need to do MORE.

Also to be considered is the fact that most of the time, when you buy a "foreign" vehicle, you're buying a vehicle made in the United States. I'm much more supportive of the guy actually building the darned thing than I am some executive.

One question we need to ask, though. If the big three go under, how much does it cost us in unemployment benefits and lost tax income?

I'm not supporting a bailout, trust me- I'm just asking a question that deserves some thought.

And while, yes, the Asian manufacturers have a history of making more fuel efficient vehicles, it ain't necessarily so. Looking at 2007, Toyota couldn't make a 4 wheel drive truck that got a combined mileage rating of 20 mpg. That includes both the full size tundra and the Mid size Tacoma. My 130,000 mile 96 F150 with auto, V8 and 4X4 gets 20 city. Sure, I know some tricks, but whmever built mny truck knew what they were doing.

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ThrillNetwork Lead Moderator
My neighbor got a big new house, and all I got was his lousy payments

^^ I'm sorry, IMO, we all have more important things to be worrying about than how they got to Washington, DC.

They could have taken rail... oh wait, we don't support passenger trains in America.

They could have taken commercial air... oh wait, they're never on time.

They could have taken the automobile... and got stuck in traffic while dealing with the crumbling infastructure.

I'm sorry, I don't see the point in making a huge deal out of this.

Once again, why do I not hear moaning and groaning about AIG's spending on our dime? Those private jets are more interesting than their lavish getaways?

Look, I have no problem being a fan of American products if they're superior to what foreign countries offer, but the bottom line is that American cars suck!

Its embarrassing.

They're ugly, inefficient, age like crap, cost more to buy and on top of that these American car companies obviously don't know how to run a business. Screw them.

I understand the repercussions, but I don't think congress should have bailed out the banks either. When all you do is stick a piece of tape over a gas gauge that says "empty," it doesn't make the problem go away. I don't want to be responsible paying for people that don't want to take responsibility for themselves!

They've been bailed out before, and once again they blew it. Sorry America, start making better products to EARN your way into the international market and THEN maybe we'll talk about supporting you when the going gets rough.

The amount of bias in this thread is ridiculous. The main reason everyone hates American cars is because of this idea we've somehow gotten that that everything foreign must automatically be better. While GM was pumping out Suburbans, Yukons, and trucks, Toyota was pumping out Land Cruisers, LXs, and Tundras, but nobody was buying them because they weren't competitive. GM makes cars that people want, but people just ignore them because they have a GM badge on them, so they must be bad, right? Toyota made absolute trash when they first came to market here, yet somehow everyone's forgotten that.

The problem the American companies are running into isn't the product, GM still sells more cars than anyone, it's the credit crunch. They can't get credit anymore because of all the financial stuff that's happened on Wall Street.

Also, GM has a car coming out in 2010 that will be EPA certified close to or over 100 mpg, and they had an electric car available in CA and AZ over 10 years ago, but nobody wanted it.

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Houston Thrills Central | Freude Am Leben
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Marvel McFey is dead.

1- Yes, we need to do the bailout but with HUGE restrictions on what they can do with the money, and I say if they do like AIG and are found to be wasting money on things like million dollar trips, then the money should be null and void and they don't get a dime.

2- The unions suck IMO. They were a necessary thing back when they started because labor conditions were awful in the USA. Now they are not. Do you know anyone working 16 hour days now? The unions need to be kicked to the curb, and that would help with costs a lot.

3- American cars aren't terrible, but IMO they are NOT as good in quality as German or Japanese cars are. How many American cars from the 80s do you see still driving around? None. But I see a good many Japanese cars from that era still chugging along. Maybe that isn't fair, because the American cars of the 80s sucked really bad.

4- Finally, I do not think if we don't bail them out, it will result in a great depression. I think it would deepen the recession, though and result in a lot of residual losses by the business that the auto workers frequent. And in a town where there are only auto workers, that could be devastating.

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Intimidator Coming in 2010 to Carowinds!

Byron is totally right on this. People think of GM and Ford as the GM of the 70's and 80's and the Ford of the 70's thru 90's. Every car I have owned has been GM (89 Chevy Cavalier, 95 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera, 2003 Pontiac Grand Prix), and each one of them I drove without major problem, and I don't hear . Ford vehicles have turned themselves around, and now rival or exceed top imports for quality and reliability. Chrysler... well... let's say I'm pretty pissed off at what their CEO, Robert Nardelli, said. He said that he makes his cars so sturdy and reliable that they're actually losing money. Well, how come I hear of more Chrysler owners complaining about how they're in the shop for repairs? Michael Moore even noted that he and his dad (both own Chryslers) have had problems with their vehicles.

The Big Lie From Chrysler CEO! - iReport.com
MichaelMoore.com : Saving the Big 3 for You and Me ...a message from Michael Moore

After that comment by Chrysler's CEO, I'm going to say they can be the ones to go. Ford and GM, though, should stick around, with some major reorganization.

By the way... Byron, if you know him, is a BMW fan.

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Everytime I ride a coaster, it valleys. I've never been on a stalled coaster or had one roll back (except Wicked Twister and what was Superman: Ultimate Escape, which does that by design).

^ My Mom had nothing but problems with her Chrysler.

She owns a Honda now, and always owned American cars before.

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I really do think that it will result in a depression. Because the numbers we see are just the GM/Ford/Chrysler jobs (or a combination of the automaker and supplier jobs). Then, they start trickling to layoffs and closings by suppliers (which do more than just car parts). Then, foreign automakers and non-automotive manufacturing have to start laying off or closing because they can't get a reliable source for parts.

Then, it starts affecting the non-manufacturing jobs, such as restaurants, retail, medical, technology, and other services. Why? Because people without jobs can't afford these things, and without that source of income, those people will be forced to lay off or close.

Why can I say this confidently? I saw it happen in Flint, MI when GM started downsizing there. I see it elsewhere where big manufacturing and mining jobs close or leave town. I hate to say this, but recovery stories are very few and far between, and with that, I absolutely guarantee you 100% the same thing will happen when we start seeing automakers go under.

See the big picture? Now, I'm not saying that everything has to be status-quo, because I am for very major reorganization of the automakers (right down to how the unions do business). I am saying that if we don't ignore it, it's not going to be good at all.

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Everytime I ride a coaster, it valleys. I've never been on a stalled coaster or had one roll back (except Wicked Twister and what was Superman: Ultimate Escape, which does that by design).

About American cars, I didn't like them in the past, but I really like them now, I think the companies have finally stepped up their game, especially GM and Ford, not so much for Chrysler though.

Either way, in 2007, A GM company tied with Lexus for least problems after three years of owning a vehicle. They used a bunch of '04 models, and found the average number of problems with all Lexus vehicles after three years to be the same as all Oldsmobile vehicles.

That subsidary is shut down now, but there's not reason I wouldn't believe they put that effort into all of their other cars. Buick and Cadillac were very high on that list, above Acura, Infiniti, VW, Audi, and Mercedes to name a few.

What makes you think I don't work?

Your aggression in arguing with EVERYBODY who disagrees with you in this thread makes me think you should open your mind more. And as I said in my post, they aren't trying to screw us, but rather, we may not benefit from something that they will benefit. It's not like they want us to suffer. That's what I was trying to emphasize.

Also, Whether I work or not to support myself, I still would pay extra taxes to help out a few corporations that had such a huge impact on bringing our country to the powerful position it is today.

Yes, I know we're also in a deficit, but that's the problem with so many Americans (about half, you know who you are). They always find things that are going wrong and blame it on somebody else, but they themselves can't think of a better idea. I don't want to pay extra taxes, but I don't see any better option. To lose those companies all together would be much worse.

Chris L, it's not that I blindly want Americans to pay taxes. It's just the lesser of the two evils.

A note on all of this, unless I'm completely wrong the $25 Billion is a LOAN, not a blank check. Isn't that right?

So the taxpayers are going to get the money back. I hope though that when they do, they get paid the interest that the US is going to have to pay to China or whoever we're getting this money from. The US doesn't have they money, they're broke sadly.

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Chrysler makes thgeir products so sturdy that they're losing money?!?!?

Is this idiot SERIOUS?!?!?

I'm now 4 years into owning my first Chrysler product. Mechanically, it has been a rock. Electrically, it's an absolute turd. It's had morethan double the electrical problems in four years that my Ford has had in ten.

Yeah- he's definitely losing money on the quality of his vehicles, all right. Unless it's something 30-40 years old or I just get an absolute steal of a deal, I'll never buy another Chrysler.

Wes, it's not a loan, it's a "loan." It won't be paid back.

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ThrillNetwork Lead Moderator
My neighbor got a big new house, and all I got was his lousy payments

We own a Chrysler Town and Country minivan. We haven't had any issues with it since we bought it.

I think Lordstown will become non exsistant if they don't bail out GM. That is a lot of people's jobs in this area. We live less then an hour from there. Our area is bad enough, but if we lose all of those jobs this area will never recover.

We just also found out that the third shift that just got added to GM is now being taken out. So much for more jobs.

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