[url]http://standard.net/standard/news/news_story.html?sid=00020606001501775656+cat=business+template=news1.html+subcat[/url]

Now before any of you guys go tongueing off on SixFlags Inc, you need to look at both sides.

1) Yes it is ridiculous that SixFlags is claiming interest on X, despite their having to do nothing with developing the actual concept.

2) It is Arrow's fault that they misjudged the price tag for X, which apparantely was a very bad move. How could they not have anticipated bugs and such that needed to be worked out gradually? And I don't blame SixFlags on this part either...they ordered up a ride, expected it to work as the manufacturer promised, and it didn't deliver as promised.

This can't be good for the weakened Arrow company and it's future with the 4D... hope Arrow works through all this.

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I clicked on the link and just some webpage came up. :confused:

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Click [URL=http://standard.net/standard/news/news_story.html?sid=00020606001501775656+cat=business+template=news1.html]here[/URL] to see the story. Six Flags is trying to buy the assets to the 4th Dimension for $10,000. How much money has Six Flags paid Arrow or are they trying to get off without paying for their coasters like they did with Vekoma for the Giant Inverted Boomerangs (Déjà Vu). They claimed that since the ride did not meet estimated capacity, they didn't have to pay. This is totally crap since no ride ever reaches those numbers. In the article, they make it sounds as if Six Flags actually had something to do with the concept of the 4th Dimension. If Arrow Dynamics were to sell, I could see Six Flags selling it over to another coaster company just to make some money. Like that will help Six Flags get out of their $2 billion debt.

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Adam Black >>

Xcelerator - Put The Pedal To The Metal

Actually Shorty, you're missing a lot of it there. Six Flags has a claim against Arrow for over 5 million dollars because of X. In essence what they are proposing is that they buy Arrow for that money being forgotten and an extra cash price of $10,000. That 5 million plus being forgiven would be enough to take Arrow completely out of debt and put them back in solvency again.

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Doesn't Arrow's bankruptcy come into play. Doesn't it suspend all lawsuits or something.

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For my own personal benefit I would like to see it happen because as you all know my home park is SFGADV and we would be the next to get a 4D, in 2003, but if arrow doesnt sell then its not telling if we will get 1 because its no telling if Arrow will get themselves together in time to make another one for next year.

On the other hand if I was Arrow there is no chance that I would give Six Flags the plan to make the 4D because that means that once they do get back on their feet they would already have another company out there making what was their design. Alot of questions need to be raised.

If arrow does go back into business, will they fix X or will six flags have to take them to court in order to get them to fix it?
Can Six Flags fix X themselves?
Will arrow be on good terms with Six Flags enough to make new coasters for them?
These r just very curious things to me.

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Arrow is not up for sale to Six Flags. Six Flags simply made an offer for assets of their 4th Dimension roller coaster out of the blue. It wasn't even up for sale. I'd like to know what this $5 million includes. I doubt that it's even that high, just another Six Flags fraudulent claim; just like how they claimed that they had something to do with the concept of the 4th Dimension.

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Adam Black >>

Xcelerator - Put The Pedal To The Metal

Here is the whole entire new article from the paper. Read it carefully and you guy's will get it:

[quote]
Bid to buy Clearfield company

Roller-coaster maker in midst of Chapter 11
Thr, June 6, 2002



The Associated Press

SALT LAKE CITY -- The majority shareholder in roller-coaster maker Arrow Dynamic, which is in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, has offered to buy the remaining interest for $384,000.

Hong Kong businessman James T. King, who claims a 56 percent ownership interest worth $1.8 million in the Clearfield-based manufacturer, has joined with Florida developer Conrad Wagner in a bid for Arrow Dynamics.

However, Steven McCardell, a Salt Lake attorney representing unsecured creditors owed an estimated $3.8 million, said, "Right now it looks like the bid is inadequate."

Arrow filed for Chapter 11 in December. It lost millions after it misjudged the cost of building the innovative "X" coaster for Six Flags Magic Mountain amusement park near Los Angeles.

In a separate bid, Oklahoma City-based Six Flags Inc. has offered to buy all Arrow assets related to the "X" ride for $10,000 and the promise to discharge all of its claims against the Utah company, in excess of $5.8 million.

"They"re claiming they have a co-ownership interest (in the "X" coaster assets), but that"s ridiculous," Arrow president Fred Bolingbroke said.

Over the past few weeks, Arrow received several additional purchase offers but the company views the King-Wagner bid as the highest and the best, Bolingbroke said.
[/quote]

In other words Six Flags has legal claims worth over 5.8 million dollars against Arrow because X has not been working the way it was supposed to. In exchange for waiving all of those claims (which would be enough to pull Arrow out of bankruptcy), and another $10,000 Six Flags would like everything in the company related to the concept behind X. It would solve Arrow's money problem, and give them the exclusives on 4d's.

At least that's what Six Flags is hoping for. Make sense now?
.

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I actually think it is partly Six Flags fault that Arrow is bankrupt. The 4D was a prototype ride. Anybody with any common sense knew it wasnt going to work *just* right. Even worse, they ordered one beofre Arrow knew all the kinks were worked out of the system. Arrow wanted some money for spending all of this time on R&D, so they agreed to build it. It was going fine, then when they tested it the trains got screwed up. So they had to re-do the trains. That cost some extra cash. Now, I do agree they probably made the price tag of the original ride a little low, but having to re-do the trains also set them back. Why does Six FLags keep making coaster designers go bankrupt?

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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by coasterguy1 [/i]
[B]I actually think it is partly Six Flags fault that Arrow is bankrupt. The 4D was a prototype ride. Anybody with any common sense knew it wasnt going to work *just* right. Even worse, they ordered one beofre Arrow knew all the kinks were worked out of the system. Arrow wanted some money for spending all of this time on R&D, so they agreed to build it. It was going fine, then when they tested it the trains got screwed up. So they had to re-do the trains. That cost some extra cash. Now, I do agree they probably made the price tag of the original ride a little low, but having to re-do the trains also set them back. Why does Six FLags keep making coaster designers go bankrupt? [/B][/QUOTE]Exactly, just like how the suspended coaster had a few serious problems when it first came out. By the time SF is done bankrupting coaster makers, there won't be any left. I do wonder why, seeing as Arrow has been such a huge company for SF, with about 26 Arrow coaster at SF parks.

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I really hope that SF does not get the rights to 4d's- they way everyone talks about X makes it sound like an incredible expereince. It would suck ifonly dirty Six Flags parks could have them.

I think it would be a bad idea...anyway, SF might not win. the whole claims thing is crazy, 10 years ago the park would just have accepted the risk with a new concept.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SFstinks [/i]
[B]I really hope that SF does not get the rights to 4d's- they way everyone talks about X makes it sound like an incredible expereince. It would suck ifonly dirty Six Flags parks could have them. [/B][/QUOTE]

Six Flags isnt dirty, so just because you may have had 1 bad day at a six flags park doesnt give you the right to call them dirty. I mean hey, do you really think that i it was up to six flags that they would have their parks dirty? No, they wouldnt, they cant control what the people do. Everyone keeps dissing Six Flags but when it comes down to it, the coaster world wouldnt be that great without them. They have the most Extreme Rides and they are the most widespread. So what if only Six Flags parks get the arrow 4D, hey there are enough six flags parks to go around. I mean not that many parks are going to get 4Ds anyway,simply because they dont have the money, the room or they just might not want it at all. So what if they do get the arrow 4D design that doesnt mean that their wont be B&M, Intamin, or even Vekoma 4Ds.

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Oh, don't blame Six Flags for the demise of Arrow. It isn't their fault that Arrow's prototype wasn't ready for construction. At worse, Six Flags might've threatened to pull the plug if Arrow didn't start building it, but it's still not SF's fault for Arrow's faulty prototype. Arrow should never have agreed to build it if it wasn't ready. And if Arrow goes down because of the 4-D, its their own fault.

However, while none of us are privy to the contractural obligations between Six Flags and Arrow, I really doubt that SF has a legitimate claim to the 4-D design.

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thispagecannotbedisplayed has been discussing this for a couple of days now and I will re-post my last comment on there on this thread..

SF places several clauses into their ride contracts that allows them to withold final payment. Usually, SF makes a 25% down payment at contract signing, 25% about halfway through project completion and the final 50% net 30 after the ride has been signed off.
1.) If the attraction isnt running at 100% to Six Flags standards, they dont have to make final payment

2.) If the maker surpasses build deadlines, Six Flags doesnt have to make final payment until 120 after the ride is signed off of.

3.) If the ride is over 120 days past deadline, SF has the right to collecta percentage of potential revenue that it might have lost during the delays (this is where the 5.8 million comes from) and withold final payment until such lost revenues are collected.)

SF has been doing these contracts for 30+ years and they know what they need to do to cover their behinds legally when it comes to contract breaches.

I think both Arrow and Gary Story are both to blame for the messes. Gary basically rushed Arrow through their R&D process to get X done before the 2001 season began and they are stuck with not one but two unreliable coasters bought in the same year! Arrow saw an opportunity to get back into the game with the major coaster players in the world, gambled, and lost.

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Wow, I really feel sorry for Arrow Dynamics. Long story short, they lost all of their money on X trying to create a one of a kind thrill ride experience. All of this talk of Arrow Dynamics being sold to no name people makes me want to start a fund raiser to help Arrow Dynamics get out of debt. Anyone else want to help me join? I bet if we tried hard enough we could get a fund raiser/donation going through the web or get Arrow to sponsor it.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CPFan [/i]
[B]All of this talk of Arrow Dynamics being sold to no name people makes me want to start a fund raiser to help Arrow Dynamics get out of debt. Anyone else want to help me join? I bet if we tried hard enough we could get a fund raiser/donation going through the web or get Arrow to sponsor it. [/B][/QUOTE]

hey thats a great idea, except i was thinking of making a petition of my own. I was thinking of getting a petetion to send to Six Flags telling them to stop killing so many companies and people. Then maybe Six Flags will understand that your not supposed to just take peoples money and then kill them. I mean come on, killing a coaster company that has made more coaster on this world than any other coaster company in history. Plus 2 deaths in 1 month. I think we need to make it clear to Six Flags that killing is wrong. If we get enough signatures, and call it, "Dont blame your Cedar Fair hate crimes on your guests." Maybe then we can all make a difference. But nothing is going to be accomplished just by watching one person after another, or one company after another being killed.

In all seriousness, CeDaRPoInTzTeR, I am sick and tired of your crap. Will you please seriously discuss the situation instead of making a fool of yourself with your stupid claims? You know, I could say the same about your precious Cedar Fair. They nearly killed a girl last week when she had a heart attack after riding Ghostrider. They killed that woman on Montezooma's Revenge and Perilous Plunge. Man, you're acting like such a fool. Please be serious about this. These are people's [i]lives[/i] we're talking about. It was not Six Flags fault they were killed. One person walked under B:TR at SFOG. Not SF's fault, his fault. Just because he was a moron, doesn't mean the company's to blame. Same with the person at SFEG. That person was mentally handicapped and he didn't know what he was doing. SF can't be blamed for his actions. That's like saying (hypothetically speaking) you run to the gas station you work at, fill a container with a gallon of gas, and torch your house and then blaming it on the gas station. No sir. You did it, and you can't blame it on anyone else. I'd suggest that you stop upping your post count with this stupid crap and actually contribute to the situation instead of making things up that could instill flames.

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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CeDaRPoInTzTeR [/i]
[B]

hey thats a great idea, except i was thinking of making a petition of my own. I was thinking of getting a petetion to send to Six Flags telling them to stop killing so many companies and people. Then maybe Six Flags will understand that your not supposed to just take peoples money and then kill them. I mean come on, killing a coaster company that has made more coaster on this world than any other coaster company in history.[/B][/QUOTE]

For the last time: Six Flags is not responsible for Arrow's demise. Arrow evidently overcommitted itself when it entered into contract with SF for the construction of X. But that's the fault of Arrow, not SF, and arguing otherwise is silly. While SF's claim to ownership on the assets of the X and 4-D design do sound dubious (and probably are), we can't say for sure without seeing the contracts. In any event, the fall of Arrow is a result of Arrow and Arrow alone.

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You know whats wierd? sixflags.com has removed everything about X! The new ride is Deja Vu, and they don't say anything about having the most coasters on earth!

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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CeDaRPoInTzTeR [/i]
[B]

hey thats a great idea, except i was thinking of making a petition of my own. I was thinking of getting a petetion to send to Six Flags telling them to stop killing so many companies and people. Then maybe Six Flags will understand that your not supposed to just take peoples money and then kill them. I mean come on, killing a coaster company that has made more coaster on this world than any other coaster company in history. Plus 2 deaths in 1 month. I think we need to make it clear to Six Flags that killing is wrong. If we get enough signatures, and call it, "Dont blame your Cedar Fair hate crimes on your guests." Maybe then we can all make a difference. But nothing is going to be accomplished just by watching one person after another, or one company after another being killed. [/B][/QUOTE]

You are the biggest CP fanboy if I ever saw one. Actually I have, and it's always been you. It's so sad how your hatred is so strong just because CP has been dethroned that you go all psycho. I don't know if talking trash about Six Flags makes you feel better or something, but you need to get a life, honestly. It's not funny anymore, and you're stupid "X kills people" lame jokes are DEAD. In fact, they weren't even funny in the first place. These people were killed, DEAL WITH IT. And also DEAL WITH THE FACT that Six Flags had nothing to do with those incidents. All those people that were killed had themselves to blame. Person error, not park.

And Six Flags killing manufacturing firms? Are you (I don't want to say this but) a dumb___. Why would Six Flags bite off the hand that has been feeding them for quite some time already. There's no "being fair", it's a business world and you need to get that into your thick fanboy skull. Arrow misjudged the price of X, and that was their fault, not SFMM's. Vekoma's ride did not deliver as PROMISED to Six Flags, therefore - Why pay for something that doesn't work? I sure as hell wouldn't. Who the hell nowadays keeps something that breaks down? NOBODY. They return it or demand their money back. Same thing with coasters. If they don't work as promised, then you have the right to not pay the firm unless it finally works as promised.

you just said it perfectly kraxle. everything you said was absolutely 100% true. and CeDaRPoInTzTeR, maybe if Cedar Fair had as many parks and rides a SF does, then there would be more deaths at their parks too. it realy isn't SF's fault that that guy at SFOG walked under the ride. it isn't their fault that the mentally retarted person got scared or whatever. it's not their fault that vekoma makes rides that dont work, or arrow underestimated the cost of their ride. if someone sold you something that didn't work, and you had to pay [I]5 million dollars[/I] to fix it, i think that you wouldn't want to pay that money.

Also, i do find it interesting that X is no longer the "new" ride on the SFMM website. [URL=http://www.sixflags.com/parks/magicmountain/Rides/index.asp]Look Here[/URL], while it does still list X as a ride, they are advertising Deja Vu and [I]Golaith[/I], which wasn't even built in the last year.

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SF really is a smart business to use those clauses in their contracts. I don't blame them at all for doing that. Makes perfect sense from a business perspective. Thanks for the info cgodsey...BTW do any other companies do that? Are manufacturers used to that sort of contract?

You think Arrow would have learned from their mistakes before...oh well. Not to blame SF but could they have rushed Arrow to get the 4D so that they could claim "Xtreme Park" and "3 coasters in one year"? Just a hypothetical question...not a suggestion whatsoever. No flaming please...

In my opinion, both Six Flags and Arrow are to blame, however, I don't think that one is more responsible than the other. Six Flags wanted three new roller coasters in one season, so that they could have the title of most roller coasters. Who can blame them? That's a great marketing tool and a good strategy to get more guests. On the other hand, they rushed Vekoma and Arrow into getting their prototypes ready for opening day, which lead to serious problems with the rides. Arrow and Vekoma could have told Six Flags that they couldn't work out all the kinks in the coasters by that time, but apparently, they didn't. Six Flags wanted a new, and expensive roller coaster, which, once paid for, could help Arrow get out of the hole that they dug for themselves. They took that opportunity, but didn't think out all the problems. Both sides, Arrow and Six Flags, are responsible for Arrow's demise, and the problems that X is having.

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how much di X cost

Personally, I don't think SF would have bought 3 Super Invertigos if Vekoma hadn't claimed they were ready. Not even Gary Story would do something that stupid. If someone tried to seel you a good product but it wasn't completely finished, you might by 1, but I don't think you'd buy 3.

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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by crash [/i]
[B]how much di X cost [/B][/QUOTE]

$14 million as Arrow judged before-hand, but ended up over $20 million at the end. That's why Arrow went kurplunk.

[quote]Personally, I don't think SF would have bought 3 Super Invertigos if Vekoma hadn't claimed they were ready. Not even Gary Story would do something that stupid.[/quote]

[b]GIANT INVERTED BOOMERANG[/b]. Where is everybody getting all this Super Invertigo and Giant Invertigo terminology?!

Super Invertigo is easier to type and you still know what I'm talking about.

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Can Six Flags win with some of you on this board. Last year many of you complained that Six Flags was advertising rides that were not open and now that Six Flags is taking action against the compines whose fault it was the rides were not open on time you complain they bankrupt them. Both Arrow and Vekoma signed a contract that the rides would be open on speciefic dates and would work to pre-arranged specs which did not happien so there were in [B]BRICH OF CONTRACT[/B] . Six Flags then has a duty to there stock holders to collect any damages to stock price and prevent possible law suits from season pass holders.

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